Likes Likes:  0
Resultaten 1 tot 15 van de 23
Pagina 1 van de 2 1 2 LaatsteLaatste
Geen
  1. #1
    Dan Kaminsky
    MD5 To Be Considered Harmful Someday
    Gast
    n/a Berichten
    Berichten zijn liked



    Thread Starter

    MD5 To Be Considered Harmful Someday

    I've been doing some analysis on MD5 collision announced by Wang et al.
    Short version: Yes, Virginia, there is no such thing as a safe hash
    collision -- at least in a function that's specified to be
    cryptographically secure. The full details may be acquired at the
    following link:

    http://www.doxpara.com/md5_someday.pdf

    A tool, Stripwire, has been assembled to demonstrate some of the attacks
    described in the paper. It may be acquired at the following address:

    http://www.doxpara.com/stripwire-1.1.tar.gz

    Incidentally, the expectations management is by no means accidental --
    the paper's titled "MD5 To Be Considered Harmful Someday" for a reason.
    Some people have said there's no applied implications to Joux and Wang's
    research. They're wrong; arbitrary payloads can be successfully
    integrated into a hash collision. But the attacks are not wildly
    practical, and in most cases exposure remains thankfully limited, for
    now. But the risks are real enough that responsible engineers should
    take note: This is not merely an academic threat, systems designed with
    MD5 now need to take far more care than they would if they were
    employing an unbroken hashing algorithm, and the problems are only going
    to get worse.

    Some highlights from the paper:

    * The attack itself is pretty limited -- essentially, we can create
    "doppelganger" blocks (my term) anywhere inside a file that may be
    swapped out, one for another, without altering the final MD5 hash. This
    lets us create any number of binary-inequal files with the same md5sum.

    * MD5 uses an appendable cascade construction -- in other words, if you
    happen to find yourself with two files that MD5 to the same hash, an
    arbitrary payload can be applied to both files and they'll still have
    the same hash. This leads to...

    * Attacks are possible using only the proof of concept test vectors
    released by Wang -- the actual attack is not necessary.

    * Stripwire emits two binary packages. They both contain an arbitrary
    payload, but the payload is encrypted with AES. Only one of the
    packages ("Fire") is decryptable and thus dangerous; the other ("Ice")
    shields its data behind AES. Both files share the same MD5 hash.

    * Digital Signature systems are vulnerable, as they almost always sign a
    hashed representation of data rather than the data itself.

    * This is an excellent vector for malicious developers to get unsafe
    code past a group of auditors, perhaps to acquire a required third party
    signature. Alternatively, build tools themselves could be compromised
    to embed safe versions of dangerous payloads in each build. At some
    later point, the embedded payload could be safely "activated", without
    the MD5 changing. This has implications for Tripwire, DRM, and several
    package management architectures.

    * HMAC's invulnerability has been slightly overstated. It's definitely
    possible, given the key, to create two datasets with the same HMAC.
    Attacker possession of the key violates MAC presumptions, so the impact
    of this is particularly questionable.

    * Very interesting possibilities open up once the full attack is made
    available -- among other things, we can create self-decrypting
    executables (fire.exe and ice.exe) that exhibit differential behavior
    based on their internal colliding payloads. They'll still have the same
    MD5 hash.

    * Several doppelgangers may (relatively quickly, as per Joux) be
    computed within a single multicollision-friendly block. As such, the
    particular selection of doppelganger sets within a file can itself be
    made to represent data. It's relatively straightforward to embed a 128
    bit signature inside an arbitrary file, in such a way that no matter the
    value of the signature, a constant MD5 hash is maintained. This is
    curiously steganographic.

    * Many popular P2P networks (and innumerable distributed content
    databases) use MD5 hashes as both a reliable search handle and a
    mechanism to ensure file integrity. This makes them blind to any
    signature embedded within MD5 collisions. We can use this blindness to
    track MP3 audio data as it propagates from a custom P2P node.
    "Strikeback" capacity against executable trafficking is even more
    pronounced -- it's possible to create application installers that
    self-modify with host identifying characteristics but still successfully
    retransmit on P2P networks under the global search hash.

    I hope this paper proves useful to the security community at large, and
    I welcome feedback.

    --Dan Kaminsky
    www.doxpara.com
    dan@doxpara.com


  2. #2
    Gandalf The White
    MD5 To Be Considered Harmful Someday
    Gast
    n/a Berichten
    Berichten zijn liked



    Thread Starter

    Re: MD5 To Be Considered Harmful Someday

    Greetings and Salutations:

    On 12/6/04 5:29 PM, "Dan Kaminsky" <dan@doxpara.com> wrote:
    <snip>
    > Some highlights from the paper:
    > * The attack itself is pretty limited -- essentially, we can create
    > "doppelganger" blocks (my term) anywhere inside a file that may be
    > swapped out, one for another, without altering the final MD5 hash. This
    > lets us create any number of binary-inequal files with the same md5sum.


    From my reading it appears that you need the original source to create the
    doppelganger blocks. It also appears that given a MD5 hash you could not
    create a input that would give that MD5 back. Passwords encoded with MD5
    would not fall prey to your discovery. Is this correct?

    Unfortunately when "The Press" publicized the MD5 hash discovery by Joux and
    Wang it almost sounded like "The Press" was surprised to find collisions in
    the MD5 domain (intuitive to me, a limited number of outputs and a infinite
    number of inputs = Collisions). I assume that a "good" hash would have a
    even distribution of collisions across the domain and that the larger number
    of bits for the output the better the hash (assuming no cryptographic
    algorithm errors).

    Thanks,
    Ken

    ---------------------------------------------------------------
    Do not meddle in the affairs of wizards for they are subtle and
    quick to anger.
    Ken Hollis - Gandalf The White - gandalf@digital.net - O- TINLC
    WWW Page - http://digital.net/~gandalf/
    Trace E-Mail forgery - http://digital.net/~gandalf/spamfaq.html
    Trolls crossposts - http://digital.net/~gandalf/trollfaq.html


  3. #3
    Tim
    MD5 To Be Considered Harmful Someday
    Gast
    n/a Berichten
    Berichten zijn liked



    Thread Starter

    Re: MD5 To Be Considered Harmful Someday

    > From my reading it appears that you need the original source to create the
    > doppelganger blocks. It also appears that given a MD5 hash you could not
    > create a input that would give that MD5 back. Passwords encoded with MD5
    > would not fall prey to your discovery. Is this correct?


    Correct, it sounds as though the attacks are not a first preimage
    attack. However, first preimage resistance is a necessary but not
    sufficient condition for security. I have not read the paper yet, but I
    imagine most of these results would imply either second preimage, or
    collision insecurity.

    > Unfortunately when "The Press" publicized the MD5 hash discovery by Joux and
    > Wang it almost sounded like "The Press" was surprised to find collisions in
    > the MD5 domain (intuitive to me, a limited number of outputs and a infinite
    > number of inputs = Collisions). I assume that a "good" hash would have a
    > even distribution of collisions across the domain and that the larger number
    > of bits for the output the better the hash (assuming no cryptographic
    > algorithm errors).


    Yes, collisions are a fact of life with message digests. However, being
    able to efficiently *predict* how to create a collision between two
    messages is very bad for the security of a hash. Suppose you and I
    agree to a contract, and I have you digitially sign a hash of it.
    Unbeknownst to you, I had earlier created a second contract with
    different wording, but which also hashes to the same value. Due to the
    slowness of public key, most digital signatures are performed on a
    digest of the original document.

    I have both sources at my disposal from the beginning in this attack,
    and am able to tweak each before giving you one (eg add whitespace,
    comments in markup language used...).

    good day,
    tim

  4. #4
    Joel Maslak
    MD5 To Be Considered Harmful Someday
    Gast
    n/a Berichten
    Berichten zijn liked



    Thread Starter

    Re: MD5 To Be Considered Harmful Someday

    On Tue, 7 Dec 2004, Gandalf The White wrote:

    > >From my reading it appears that you need the original source to create the

    > doppelganger blocks. It also appears that given a MD5 hash you could not
    > create a input that would give that MD5 back. Passwords encoded with MD5
    > would not fall prey to your discovery. Is this correct?


    My understanding is similar to yours.

    However, imagine a PKI system in, say, a contract management system.

    Let's say you can write a valid word document with a section of text that
    can be "swapped" out.

    That can be a problem. It breaks non-repudiation - someone could create
    such a "swappable" contract and go to court and say "Yes, that's a valid
    signature, but I really signed *THIS* document which just happens to have
    an identical signature." Of course if I was called upon to testify, I
    would respond, "Yes, but it is clear this contract was written with the
    intent to defraud us, as to get this property, it has to be constructed in
    a very specific mind with this fraud in mind at time of contract
    origination..."

    --
    Joel

  5. #5
    Rager, Anton
    MD5 To Be Considered Harmful Someday
    Gast
    n/a Berichten
    Berichten zijn liked



    Thread Starter

    RE: MD5 To Be Considered Harmful Someday


    Some things to note....

    1 - Wang and Joux's attacks do not allow determination of original
    inputs from a given hash.
    2 - The interesting and newsworthy part of Wang's paper is not that
    there are collisions in MD5 (and the other hash algs they produced
    collisions for), but that they can produce colliding inputs by some
    process other than random or bruteforce searching. They have some
    method that allows them to produce colliding inputs at will with a
    minimal amount of work - 32way 1.7ghz system produces unique 128byte
    colliding texts in under 1.5hrs. They have proven this is more than just
    random/bruteforce luck by providing two pairs of colliding inputs with
    wrong initial values for MD5, and in the same day (at Crypto2004)
    produced 2 new pairs of colliding inputs for the corrected MD5 init
    values.

    To truly understand the impacts of Wang's attacks, the actual collision
    prediction/search method needs to be published. From the information
    released so far, Wang is relying on very particular 128byte sequences
    with bits flipped in 6 or 7 bit positions between the two 128 byte
    sequences. It does not appear that a colliding input can be produced for
    just any arbitrary input/text with this attack -- it appears the
    original input needs to meet some very specific requirements to allow
    creation of a colliding (alternate) input that will produce the same
    output hash. More detail on Wang's alg/method is needed to know the full
    extent of the applied impacts.=20
    =20
    Regards,

    Anton Rager
    arager@avaya.com

    -----Original Message-----
    From: Gandalf The White [mailto:gandalf@digital.net]=20
    Sent: Tuesday, December 07, 2004 3:55 PM
    To: Dan Kaminsky; BugTraq
    Subject: Re: MD5 To Be Considered Harmful Someday

    Greetings and Salutations:

    On 12/6/04 5:29 PM, "Dan Kaminsky" <dan@doxpara.com> wrote:
    <snip>
    > Some highlights from the paper:
    > * The attack itself is pretty limited -- essentially, we can create
    > "doppelganger" blocks (my term) anywhere inside a file that may be
    > swapped out, one for another, without altering the final MD5 hash.

    This
    > lets us create any number of binary-inequal files with the same

    md5sum.

    From my reading it appears that you need the original source to create
    the
    doppelganger blocks. It also appears that given a MD5 hash you could
    not
    create a input that would give that MD5 back. Passwords encoded with
    MD5
    would not fall prey to your discovery. Is this correct?

    Unfortunately when "The Press" publicized the MD5 hash discovery by Joux
    and
    Wang it almost sounded like "The Press" was surprised to find collisions
    in
    the MD5 domain (intuitive to me, a limited number of outputs and a
    infinite
    number of inputs =3D Collisions). I assume that a "good" hash would =
    have
    a
    even distribution of collisions across the domain and that the larger
    number
    of bits for the output the better the hash (assuming no cryptographic
    algorithm errors).

    Thanks,
    Ken

    ---------------------------------------------------------------
    Do not meddle in the affairs of wizards for they are subtle and
    quick to anger.
    Ken Hollis - Gandalf The White - gandalf@digital.net - O- TINLC
    WWW Page - http://digital.net/~gandalf/
    Trace E-Mail forgery - http://digital.net/~gandalf/spamfaq.html
    Trolls crossposts - http://digital.net/~gandalf/trollfaq.html


  6. #6
    Joel Maslak
    MD5 To Be Considered Harmful Someday
    Gast
    n/a Berichten
    Berichten zijn liked



    Thread Starter

    Re: MD5 To Be Considered Harmful Someday

    On Mon, 6 Dec 2004, Dan Kaminsky wrote:

    > I've been doing some analysis on MD5 collision announced by Wang et al.
    > Short version: Yes, Virginia, there is no such thing as a safe hash
    > collision -- at least in a function that's specified to be
    > cryptographically secure. The full details may be acquired at the
    > following link:


    The short-term fix seems to be something I've been recommending for a
    while:

    Compute hashes with both SHA-1 and MD5.

    The chance of one algorithm becoming compromised in the mid-term is
    relatively high IMHO (I was responsible for a PKI system which had to keep
    integrity for 20 year periods of time - not an easy task considering what
    we don't know about the future). The chance of two becoming compromised
    is relatively less. The chance of a problem with MD5 and SHA-1 allowing
    two different files to have collisions in both algorithms in *BOTH* is
    very very small.

    --
    Joel

  7. #7
    Gandalf The White
    MD5 To Be Considered Harmful Someday
    Gast
    n/a Berichten
    Berichten zijn liked



    Thread Starter

    Re: MD5 To Be Considered Harmful Someday

    Greetings and Salutations:

    In my first e-mail I meant to congratulate Dan Kaminsky for the fine work
    and write-up he did. Excellent.

    On 12/7/04 10:01 PM, "David Schwartz" <davids@webmaster.com> wrote:
    >> From my reading it appears that you need the original source to create the
    >> doppelganger blocks. It also appears that given a MD5 hash you could not
    >> create a input that would give that MD5 back. Passwords encoded with MD5
    >> would not fall prey to your discovery. Is this correct?

    >
    > Correct. You will never be able to find the input given an MD5 hash. It
    > might be possible to, eventually, come up with an input that has the same
    > hash given just the hash, but you could never know if that was the original
    > input or not. (At least, not in general.)


    That is the worry that I have for MD5 hashed passwords. It doesn't matter
    that you get the *correct* password, just that you have input that will hash
    (collide) to the correct MD5 hash.

    What I am worried about is the integrity of MD5 hashed passwords. This
    concern is for both Cisco and *NIX passwords. Lets say that I have a
    password:
    "ThisIsMySecretPassphrase" MD5 = $1$Vjuf$t5QYnzXL0Sy4tThvqKDGa1

    Lets say that I am very smart and I can use software that is able to
    generate a collision in the passwords such that the MD5 hashes are the same,
    say for example:
    "AshEr37WesW28Er4E2" MD5 = $1$Vjuf$t5QYnzXL0Sy4tThvqKDGa1

    It does not matter that I don't know the correct password, I have a password
    that collides into the correct hash. I can log into the system with my
    generated password.

    I just want to make sure that the MD5 hash passwords don't end up being as
    easy to compute as the Cisco 7 passwords or the NTLM passwords. It actually
    is beginning to sound like there might be enough of a hole in MD5 that "we"
    (collectively) had better start working on SHA-2 hashed passwords ...

    Ken

    ---------------------------------------------------------------
    Do not meddle in the affairs of wizards for they are subtle and
    quick to anger.
    Ken Hollis - Gandalf The White - gandalf@digital.net - O- TINLC
    WWW Page - http://digital.net/~gandalf/
    Trace E-Mail forgery - http://digital.net/~gandalf/spamfaq.html
    Trolls crossposts - http://digital.net/~gandalf/trollfaq.html



  8. #8
    David Schwartz
    MD5 To Be Considered Harmful Someday
    Gast
    n/a Berichten
    Berichten zijn liked



    Thread Starter

    RE: MD5 To Be Considered Harmful Someday


    > From my reading it appears that you need the original source to create the
    > doppelganger blocks. It also appears that given a MD5 hash you could not
    > create a input that would give that MD5 back. Passwords encoded with MD5
    > would not fall prey to your discovery. Is this correct?


    Correct. You will never be able to find the input given an MD5 hash. It
    might be possible to, eventually, come up with an input that has the same
    hash given just the hash, but you could never know if that was the original
    input or not. (At least, not in general.)

    > Unfortunately when "The Press" publicized the MD5 hash discovery
    > by Joux and Wang it almost sounded like "The Press" was
    > surprised to find collisions in the MD5 domain


    Lots of people were surprised. We all knew we were there, and we all knew
    they'd be found eventually. I don't think many people suspected, however,
    that they would be found quite so soon. Some of the early "mainstream"
    articles missed the boat, of course.

    > (intuitive to me, a limited number of outputs and
    > a infinite
    > number of inputs = Collisions). I assume that a "good" hash would have a
    > even distribution of collisions across the domain and that the
    > larger number
    > of bits for the output the better the hash (assuming no cryptographic
    > algorithm errors).


    Yes. At this point, MD5 should no longer be used for applications where an
    adversary might have access to the data that is being signed. That means
    it's no longer suitable for signing certificates or authenticating data sent
    over a peer-to-peer network. SHA1 with 160-bits is still, as far as we know,
    suitable for all of these purposes.

    I generally advise not using MD5 for any applications except (P)RNGs and as
    a non-cryptographically-secure checksum.

    DS



  9. #9
    Keith Oxenrider
    MD5 To Be Considered Harmful Someday
    Gast
    n/a Berichten
    Berichten zijn liked



    Thread Starter

    Re: MD5 To Be Considered Harmful Someday

    For what it is worth, I have an ANSI standard C++ implementation of the
    sha-160/224/256/384/512 bit algorithms that auto-detects endian-ness and
    adjusts accordingly (tested on Wintel, Lintel and Solaris). It can be
    found at http://sol-biotech.com/code/sha2/ (it comes with a test suite that
    was developed by Aaron D. Gifford who did the C implementation I based it
    on). For some reason the default directory display does not list the
    README File, it is here: http://sol-biotech.com/code/sha2/README. I
    created a simple password class for creating and managing passwords based
    on my sha* implementation, it can be found here:
    http://sol-biotech.com/code/SimplePass/. I would love to have constructive
    feedback.

    Keith Oxenrider
    CISSP

    At 10:36 PM 12/7/2004 -0600, Gandalf The White wrote:
    >Greetings and Salutations:
    >
    ><snip>
    >
    >I just want to make sure that the MD5 hash passwords don't end up being as
    >easy to compute as the Cisco 7 passwords or the NTLM passwords. It actually
    >is beginning to sound like there might be enough of a hole in MD5 that "we"
    >(collectively) had better start working on SHA-2 hashed passwords ...
    >
    >Ken
    >
    >---------------------------------------------------------------
    >Do not meddle in the affairs of wizards for they are subtle and
    >quick to anger.
    >Ken Hollis - Gandalf The White - gandalf@digital.net - O- TINLC
    >WWW Page - http://digital.net/~gandalf/
    >Trace E-Mail forgery - http://digital.net/~gandalf/spamfaq.html
    >Trolls crossposts - http://digital.net/~gandalf/trollfaq.html



  10. #10
    Dragos Ruiu
    MD5 To Be Considered Harmful Someday
    Gast
    n/a Berichten
    Berichten zijn liked



    Thread Starter

    Re: MD5 To Be Considered Harmful Someday

    On December 7, 2004 04:13 pm, Tim wrote:
    > > Unfortunately when "The Press" publicized the MD5 hash discovery by Joux
    > > and Wang it almost sounded like "The Press" was surprised to find
    > > collisions in the MD5 domain (intuitive to me, a limited number of
    > > outputs and a infinite number of inputs = Collisions). I assume that a
    > > "good" hash would have a even distribution of collisions across the
    > > domain and that the larger number of bits for the output the better the
    > > hash (assuming no cryptographic algorithm errors).

    >
    > Yes, collisions are a fact of life with message digests. However, being
    > able to efficiently *predict* how to create a collision between two
    > messages is very bad for the security of a hash. Suppose you and I
    > agree to a contract, and I have you digitially sign a hash of it.
    > Unbeknownst to you, I had earlier created a second contract with
    > different wording, but which also hashes to the same value. Due to the
    > slowness of public key, most digital signatures are performed on a
    > digest of the original document.
    >
    > I have both sources at my disposal from the beginning in this attack,
    > and am able to tweak each before giving you one (eg add whitespace,
    > comments in markup language used...).



    Which brings up a good point: Proving the existence of collisions is not the
    same thing as being able to predict the collisions.

    Dan, your attack application(s) presumes that there is a way to predict
    the collisions in a general form, and more so is primarily useful only
    if there is a way to predict collisions for ANY arbitrary hash.

    AFAIK the only thing proven so far is that there are collisions, and though
    this certainly increases the probability of a generalized collision method,
    it is not discovered/documented yet.

    Your proposal is an interesting application(s) of collisions - and certainly
    does much to dispel some of the belittling of the collision discovery.
    However the extent of the collisionabililty (collideability?) of md5
    is still under debate afaik... feel free to correct me if I am wrong.

    It may still be a little early to prepare applications for something we
    haven't discovered yet - though we can have a debate on the likelyhood of
    this discovery again over tequila at your leisure :-). It's a neat attack
    scenario, certainly worth consideration, and you bring up
    a number of interesting points about md5, but without the
    collision logic it remains a theoretical concern for education
    and a future attack vector caveat.

    cheers,
    --dr

    --
    World Security Pros. Cutting Edge Training, Tools, and Techniques
    Vancouver, Canada May 4-6 2005 http://cansecwest.com
    pgpkey http://dragos.com/ kyxpgp

  11. #11
    Jack Lloyd
    MD5 To Be Considered Harmful Someday
    Gast
    n/a Berichten
    Berichten zijn liked



    Thread Starter

    Re: MD5 To Be Considered Harmful Someday

    On Tue, Dec 07, 2004 at 06:46:20PM -0700, Joel Maslak wrote:

    > The short-term fix seems to be something I've been recommending for a
    > while:
    >
    > Compute hashes with both SHA-1 and MD5.
    >
    > The chance of one algorithm becoming compromised in the mid-term is
    > relatively high IMHO (I was responsible for a PKI system which had to keep
    > integrity for 20 year periods of time - not an easy task considering what
    > we don't know about the future). The chance of two becoming compromised
    > is relatively less. The chance of a problem with MD5 and SHA-1 allowing
    > two different files to have collisions in both algorithms in *BOTH* is
    > very very small.


    You might want to read this:
    http://www.mail-archive.com/cryptogr.../msg02611.html

    Essentially you can use Joux's attack to generate 2^64 collisions for SHA-1
    with about 64*2^80 effort; out of those 2^64 collisions you have an even chance
    that at least one of them will also collide in MD5. That's still 2^86 hash
    computations, nothing to sneeze at, but nowhere near the expected 2^144
    operations. That workfactor might be doable in a 20 year timeframe.

    It actually looks like it's better to generate 2^80 MD5 collisions instead of
    2^64 SHA-1 collisions, since the initial collisions would be trivial to
    generate, and even if MD5 wasn't broken 80*2^64 + 2^80 << 64*2^80 + 2^64. So in
    fact you can generate a MD5||SHA collision with only a tiny bit more work than
    generating a SHA collision.

    So this really doesn't buy you anything.

    Jack

  12. #12
    Ruth A. Kramer
    MD5 To Be Considered Harmful Someday
    Gast
    n/a Berichten
    Berichten zijn liked



    Thread Starter

    Re: MD5 To Be Considered Harmful Someday

    Gandalf The White wrote:
    > Unfortunately when "The Press" publicized the MD5 hash discovery by Joux and
    > Wang it almost sounded like "The Press" was surprised to find collisions in
    > the MD5 domain (intuitive to me, a limited number of outputs and a infinite
    > number of inputs = Collisions). I assume that a "good" hash would have a
    > even distribution of collisions across the domain and that the larger number
    > of bits for the output the better the hash (assuming no cryptographic
    > algorithm errors).


    Somehow there may be a lesson in this somewhere (not entirely sure for
    whom (?)), or maybe not. Anyway, I'm copying this to my offline
    wiki/askSam thingie for future cogitation.

    My point: I'm sure "The Press" one way or another was told or got the
    impression that MD5 hashes were the "answer to a maiden's prayers" with
    respect to file security (against corruption). Not sure exactly how
    they got that impression, probably neither you nor I (nor any of "us")
    told them that -- if asked, we might have said something with
    reservations -- like, MD5 can assure no file system corruption with a
    probability of failure of (for example) 1 chance in some very big number
    of failing.

    Gradually that second clause gets forgotten, sometimes intentionally
    (but innocently, I think: "don't worry about it, it'll never happen").
    The further the news of MD5 travels, the more likely only the first part
    ("MD5 can assure no file system corruption") of the message gets
    through, not the qualifier ("with a probability of failure ..."). Even
    if the initial clause is crafted better ("MD5 can almost assure no file
    system corruption"), the "almost" disappears as the message is
    propagated. (Not everyone would use the same words for this example,
    but choose almost any other set of words and you get the same result.)

    Not sure what can be done about it, but I guess awareness of the problem
    is one step toward a solution, which is why I'm noting this to myself
    (and the list ;-).

    regards,
    Randy Kramer

    Asides:

    1. Is part of the solution to always stress the "almost"?
    (Although, without thinking about it.

    2. We (mostly) are insiders. What is intuitive to us is (usually?) not
    intuitive to outsiders, depending on the subtlety of the issue.

    3. At one point I read the thesis of the guy that wrote rsync (is name
    isn't on the tip of my tongue at the moment, that's embarrassing) -- I
    was fairly disappointed (and surprised) to find that the reliability of
    rsync relied on a similar "probalistic" approach (can't find the right
    words). As I recall, this was not mentioned on the first page of his
    thesis (I could be wrong), the README for rsync, nor as a user message
    when the program is invoked. IIRC, when the subject was brought up in
    his thesis, it was effectively dismissed as "it'll never happen". (The
    words invoked, if not actually used, phrases like "the heat death of the
    universe".)

  13. #13
    Dan Kaminsky
    MD5 To Be Considered Harmful Someday
    Gast
    n/a Berichten
    Berichten zijn liked



    Thread Starter

    Re: MD5 To Be Considered Harmful Someday


    >The algorithm is far more complicated than "raw" MD5. It consists of
    >1000 iterations of MD5 with both output from the previous iteration
    >and the original input (plaintext password and salt) being rolled into
    >the hash on each iteration.
    >
    >

    Brute force work efforts like password cracking tend to be an
    exponential times a constant -- say, 2^32 operations that take 100ms
    each. Increasing the complexity of a legitimate password verification
    increases the constant. Interestingly, the more efficient a legitimate
    verifier becomes, the more efficient your brute forcer is.

    Not that brute force is the only approach available. There are numerous
    attacks that might break "pure" MD5 but fail given such massive
    overlapping. There are, however, others that abuse extra rounds to
    great effect. For instance, SHA-0 is an 80 round algorithm. Biham's
    paper (http://eprint.iacr.org/2004/146/) showed that an 82 round variant
    is actually much weaker. And Joux's unreleased paper makes it very
    clear that simply stacking primitives doesn't create nearly the level of
    combinatorial complexity that you'd expect.

    Of course, as I've said elsewhere passwords really aren't at all
    vulnerable to the MD5 attack. But, if they were, extra iterations
    wouldn't be helpful. Once the first round collided, all future rounds
    would continue to collide.

    --Dan
    www.doxpara.com


  14. #14
    Dan Kaminsky
    MD5 To Be Considered Harmful Someday
    Gast
    n/a Berichten
    Berichten zijn liked



    Thread Starter

    Re: MD5 To Be Considered Harmful Someday


    >Since you can't possibly mean absolutely suitable, can you clarify your
    >basis for suitability? I'm not asking for a technical proof, just the
    >general metrics used to make the determination.
    >
    >If 160 bit SHA1 is good enough for one application but not another, what
    >does one need to know to decide for their own application?
    >
    >

    SHA-1 is truncatable to 128 bits for applications that have limited
    space available for hashes. This limits the birthday paradox attack to
    a 2^64 effort, but MD5 isn't anywhere close to that anymore.
    (Incidentally, the output of birthday attack is an unchosen collision,
    just like Wang's.)

    SHA-1 isn't perfect, but we haven't known its been broken for a decade
    like we have for MD5.

    --Dan


  15. #15
    Paul Wouters
    MD5 To Be Considered Harmful Someday
    Gast
    n/a Berichten
    Berichten zijn liked



    Thread Starter

    Re: MD5 To Be Considered Harmful Someday

    On Tue, 7 Dec 2004, Gandalf The White wrote:

    > What I am worried about is the integrity of MD5 hashed passwords. This


    > It does not matter that I don't know the correct password, I have a password
    > that collides into the correct hash. I can log into the system with my
    > generated password.


    Can't we just truncate the password to 8 characters like in the old days
    before doing the MD5 hash? It will greatly reduce the chance of a collision.
    In fact, I am not even sure my systems don't do this already.

    Paul

Pagina 1 van de 2 1 2 LaatsteLaatste

Webhostingtalk.nl

Contact

  • Rokin 113-115
  • 1012 KP, Amsterdam
  • Nederland
  • Contact
© Copyright 2001-2026 Webhostingtalk.nl.
Web Statistics