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  1. #1
    Stefaan
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    Tips voor de posters die deze NG met off-topic scheldpartijtjes bevuilen


    I'm Right; You're Wrong
    The Problem: Polarity

    The digital world is a binary world; computers work with zero and one - true and
    false. In a striking parallel, people in online discussions often seek Yes/No answers
    rather than compromise. Rather than seeking a middle ground, a struggle arises to
    determine who is right and who is wrong. If the truth lies somewhere in between,
    there can rarely be a resolution, and the debate can continue indefinitely.

    You're Right; I'm Wrong
    The Problem: Ego

    One wag once remarked that the sentence typed least often on the Internet is "I was
    wrong".
    It is indeed hard for us to admit defeat, especially if we have typed several
    impassioned messages establishing our position. We are afraid to lose face, or we do
    not know how to concede gracefully.
    This problem is sometimes related to that of polarity: we may feel that we have to be
    right or wrong. We may also think that an issue must be resolved in a single post.
    Yet we can often deflect an argument simply by responding, "Yes, that makes sense."
    We do not have to make a formal surrender!

    They're Wrong; You're Wrong
    The Problem: Transference

    Flame wars can break out when one person tentatively takes a position that another
    participant feels strongly about. The original poster may then be seen as
    representative of the entire opposing side.
    For example, if I was to express support for a particular political candidate's
    stance on some issue, you may heap upon me the scorn you feel for the entire
    political party. Since you cannot attack the party itself, you transfer your
    hostility to me. If I don't realize that this has taken place, I might end up
    fighting with you.

    You Mustn't Be Right
    The Problem: Antiprocess

    Most people have a fairly fixed set of beliefs with which they are comfortable. These
    help them get through life, and if these ideas are in jeopardy they may react
    irrationally.
    This involves a psychological defense mechanism known as "avoidance of cognitive
    dissonance". I refer to this problem as "antiprocess" because while the person
    preprocesses the information subconsciously, he or she does not process the
    information consciously. Indeed, he or she actively evades conscious processing. When
    this happens the person can appear to be stubborn or even stupid.
    Once you learn to spot antiprocess, you will see how it causes unresolvable
    arguments. Certain types of phrases (which I refer to as "Unwarranted Ascription")
    serve as warning signs that a debate has run up against antiprocess:
    You know perfectly well ...
    You are deliberately ...
    You are intentionally trying to deceive ...
    You know I'm right, but ...
    When you see somebody "mind-reading" like this - telling somebody else what they
    "know" or what they are thinking - it's quite likely that antiprocess has entered
    into the discussion.
    There are other warning signs. It is a good idea to familiarize yourself with the
    various logical fallacies, such as Ad hominem, Argumentum ad populum, Straw Man, and
    so on. (These are documented in many places on the net and are outside the scope of
    this article.) It is my belief that we pick up these techniques as we learn language
    and keep them in our subconscious catalog of defensive techniques. We may understand,
    on a purely rational level, why each of these techniques is fallacious, but we are
    nonetheless tempted to fall back on them when our emotional well-being is threatened.

    You're Not Listening
    The Problem: Frustration

    When you are in a crowd, it is hard to be heard above everybody else. You can
    compensate by raising your voice - but this does not work online.
    When people think they are not being given a fair hearing, they may become more and
    more emphatic. They start using words such as "clearly" and "obviously" more often,
    and make key terms stand out by placing them in UPPERCASE. Expressions such as "any
    fool can see" start popping up. When you see people ramping up in this manner, an
    argument is looming.
    On the other hand, some people do this habitually when they write messages.
    Everything is stated as if it should be obvious to any intelligent person once they
    have the facts (as the poster sees them). This stands as a subtle challenge, if not
    an insult, to those who may think differently.
    People who demand to be heard may also increase the length of their posts, or post
    more often. This often has the opposite effect they desired: people start skimming or
    skipping what they say. That is when we start seeing phrases such as, "Didn't you
    read what I wrote?" or "I've already explained to you that...".
    Clearly (ahem), this is a conversation that is heading for trouble.

    I Thought You Knew
    The Problem: Miscommunication

    People sometimes get angry when they misinterpret what others have written. The other
    person may have written a joke that didn't quite work, or may have written what they
    thought was self-evidentally a bit of playful teasing. They may use a word correctly
    and have it taken the wrong way ("You're ignorant of ..." does not mean the other
    person is uneducated; it means they do not know).
    In addition, people sometimes post messages when they are not at their best. They may
    be tired or even two beers past their usual limit. People who know them well will
    probably not take offense if they write something a bit coarse, but others may have
    their feathers ruffled by a careless remark.
    If you are participating on a message board, it helps to have a thick skin.

    I'm Right; You're Deluded
    The Problem: Flamebait

    "Flamebait" (sometimes rendered "Flame Bait") is a subject that people feel strongly
    about and which almost always causes causes sharp divisions in viewpoint. In general,
    these topics involve sex, religion and politics.
    When flame war veterans see one of these topics come up, they often restrict their
    reply to something like, "This is flamebait; I'm not touching this topic."
    Inexperienced users, on the other hand, blithely charge in, and the same tired
    arguments are trotted out for the millionth time. Nobody changes their position and
    everybody gets irritated.

    I'm Right; You're Hooked
    The Problem: Trolling

    Internet trolls are people who set out to start arguments or otherwise make people on
    message boards uncomfortable. They can do this by posting "flamebait" topics or by
    writing preposterous or insulting messages. (I have written an article that provides
    a more detailed explanation of "Internet Trolls"; you can click here to read it in a
    new window.)
    Trolls may participate in the ensuing argument, or they may simply write what I call
    "Drive-by Postings". That is to say, they will ignite the flame war and then sit back
    and watch the show.
    Cagey net users quickly recognize trolls for what they are and warn their fellow
    posters that "You are being trolled" (or words to that effect). However, since there
    is a constant influx of new users on the net, trolls are going to be able to
    entertain themselves for a long time to come.

    I'm Within the Rules
    The Problem: Brinking

    Some users find sport in seeing how close they can get to being thrown off a message
    board. The system administrator will often have a set of rules (typically known as
    the "Terms of Service") which specify how people should conduct themselves. One type
    of poster, which I call a "brinker", attempts to get as near to the edge as he or she
    possibly can without actually going over.
    Unlike the troll, who directs his or her efforts at the users of a system, the
    brinker is actually toying with the system administrator. He or she can be a thorn in
    the side of the administrator, holding the good name and popularity of the system at
    stake. Most administrators hesitate to throw people off the system unless they have
    broken an explicit rule. The brinker enjoys using words (or, occasionally, computer
    hacking) to exploit "grey areas" and thus wreak havoc.
    Brinkers, like trolls, elevate their hobby to an art form (albeit an unpleasant one).
    They can be so subtle that the administrator may not be sure that he or she is being
    brinked. For example, on a message board I once ran I explained to the users about
    "flamebait". Within a week, one of them had started up a flamebait topic. I was
    tempted to close it down before it devolved into the usual bickering, but that may
    have made me look dictatorial. So was the creation of the topic a dig at me, or was I
    being paranoid? Assessing that user's past actions, I concluded that I'd been
    brinked.
    If an administrator runs an informal board, it may be counterproductive to explicitly
    list all the rules. I have sometimes been "taken to court" (so to speak) by users
    when I kicked somebody off a message board, and had my own rules used to "prove" that
    my action was not justified. Most message board administrators, if they do have a
    list of rules, include a statement that they may block any user "at our discretion".
    In other words, they can banish somebody without stating a specific reason. This
    still irritates people, but at least the administrator is covered by his or her own
    rules.

    ** Conclusion

    It is exceedingly rare to see somebody change their position during a flame war, no
    matter how much the facts are stacked against them. However, this does not mean that
    we should never have intense discussions online. Even people who will not admit error
    may remember the conversation and allow the information to affect their viewpoint in
    the future. Moreover, onlookers who are following the debate may be swayed by the
    person with the most persuasive approach.

    Note that I did not say, "The person who has the best information" or "The person who
    makes the best case". If we were purely logical creatures we would not have flame
    wars - or wars of any sort. The writer Kurt Vonnegut Jr. once opined that when people
    see a debate they side with the person they like the best. Since it is hard to like
    somebody who is ranting and raving, it behooves us to learn a bit of self-control if
    we wish to garner support for what we say.
    Moreover, I would like to think that most of us actually do seek after truth. We may
    be waylaid by our lower nature but nobody consciously believes a lie. It is for this
    reason that I think it is helpful to learn to spot how other people get into silly
    arguments ... and then learn to spot this tendency in ourselves.



  2. #2
    Lucifer
    Tips voor de posters die deze NG met off-topic scheldpartijtjes bevuilen
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    Re: Tips voor de posters die deze NG met off-topic scheldpartijtjes bevuilen

    > I'm Right; You're Wrong
    > The Problem: Polarity
    >


    Snip in story

    Considering the fact that this is a nl.-newsgroup you'd better
    translate your story and fuck off with your English

    --
    *Dit was Brandhout.
    Goedenavond!*



  3. #3
    Stefaan
    Tips voor de posters die deze NG met off-topic scheldpartijtjes bevuilen
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    Re: Tips voor de posters die deze NG met off-topic scheldpartijtjes bevuilen


    "Lucifer" <Lucifer@satanist.nl> schreef in bericht
    news:434e041c$1_3@newsgate.x-privat.org...
    > > I'm Right; You're Wrong
    > > The Problem: Polarity
    > >

    >
    > Snip in story
    >
    > Considering the fact that this is a nl.-newsgroup you'd better
    > translate your story and fuck off with your English
    >


    WARNING: off-topic flamebait


  4. #4
    Stefaan
    Tips voor de posters die deze NG met off-topic scheldpartijtjes bevuilen
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    Re: Tips voor de posters die deze NG met off-topic scheldpartijtjes bevuilen


    "Stefaan" <me2@privacy.net> schreef in bericht
    news:Von3f.22075$LS3.673854@phobos.telenet-ops.be...
    >
    > "Lucifer" <Lucifer@satanist.nl> schreef in bericht
    > news:434e041c$1_3@newsgate.x-privat.org...
    > > > I'm Right; You're Wrong
    > > > The Problem: Polarity
    > > >

    > >
    > > Snip in story
    > >
    > > Considering the fact that this is a nl.-newsgroup you'd better
    > > translate your story and fuck off with your English
    > >

    >
    > WARNING: off-topic flamebait


    Voor niet flamende posters:
    http://nl.news-admin.org/info/


  5. #5
    Lucifer
    Tips voor de posters die deze NG met off-topic scheldpartijtjes bevuilen
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    Re: Tips voor de posters die deze NG met off-topic scheldpartijtjes bevuilen

    > "Lucifer" <Lucifer@satanist.nl> schreef in bericht
    > news:434e041c$1_3@newsgate.x-privat.org...
    >>> I'm Right; You're Wrong
    >>> The Problem: Polarity
    >>>

    >>
    >> Snip in story
    >>
    >> Considering the fact that this is a nl.-newsgroup you'd better
    >> translate your story and fuck off with your English
    >>

    >
    > WARNING: off-topic flamebait


    Helemaal niet. Je post principieel niet in het Engels in een
    NL-nieuwsgroep. Naast het gegeven dat het niet voldoet aan de regels is
    het ook nog eens hoogst onfatsoenlijk tegenover hen, die de Nederlandse
    taal een warm hart toedragen.

    --
    *Dit was Brandhout.
    Goedenavond!*



  6. #6
    Bart
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    Re: Tips voor de posters die deze NG met off-topic scheldpartijtjes bevuilen

    Tip 1:

    Dit is een NL. niewsgroep!


    --
    Bart (voor authenticiteit zie de headers m.n. x-trace & User-agent)

  7. #7
    Lucifer
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    Re: Tips voor de posters die deze NG met off-topic scheldpartijtjes bevuilen

    > Tip 1:
    >
    > Dit is een NL. niewsgroep!


    Dat bedoelde ik maar even.

    --
    *Dit was Brandhout.
    Goedenavond!*



  8. #8
    Amedee Van Gasse
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    Re: Tips voor de posters die deze NG met off-topic scheldpartijtjes bevuilen


    Lucifer schreef:

    > > "Lucifer" <Lucifer@satanist.nl> schreef in bericht
    > > news:434e041c$1_3@newsgate.x-privat.org...
    > >>> I'm Right; You're Wrong
    > >>> The Problem: Polarity
    > >>>
    > >>
    > >> Snip in story
    > >>
    > >> Considering the fact that this is a nl.-newsgroup you'd better
    > >> translate your story and fuck off with your English
    > >>

    > >
    > > WARNING: off-topic flamebait

    >
    > Helemaal niet. Je post principieel niet in het Engels in een
    > NL-nieuwsgroep. Naast het gegeven dat het niet voldoet aan de regels is
    > het ook nog eens hoogst onfatsoenlijk tegenover hen, die de Nederlandse
    > taal een warm hart toedragen.


    Beter ware geweest dat de draadstarter gemeld had dat hij ergens een
    interessante webpagina gevonden had waarin een analyse wordt gemaakt
    van het "flame"-fenomeen, met vermelding van de koppeling
    <http://members.aol.com/intwg/flamewars.htm> en met de waarschuwing dat
    de pagina integraal in het Engels (engels? in de nieuwe spelling?) is.
    Dus zonder het integraal overnemen van de tekst. En dat nog wel zonder
    bronvermelding, wat jammer! Het is nochtans zo'n interessant geschreven
    tekst, duidelijk van iemand die al h=E9=E9l wat watertjes doorzwommen
    heeft.

    --=20
    Amedee Van Gasse,
    taalraadsman op mijn werk. ;-)


  9. #9
    !An!
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    Re: Tips voor de posters die deze NG met off-topic scheldpartijtjes bevuilen

    Stefaan <me2@privacy.net> wrote:
    > "Lucifer" <Lucifer@satanist.nl> schreef in bericht
    > news:434e041c$1_3@newsgate.x-privat.org...
    >> > I'm Right; You're Wrong
    >> > The Problem: Polarity
    >> >

    >>
    >> Snip in story
    >>
    >> Considering the fact that this is a nl.-newsgroup you'd better
    >> translate your story and fuck off with your English
    >>

    >
    > WARNING: off-topic flamebait


    Speak Dutch or GET OUT...



  10. #10
    Amedee Van Gasse
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    Re: Tips voor de posters die deze NG met off-topic scheldpartijtjes bevuilen


    !An! schreef:

    > Stefaan <me2@privacy.net> wrote:
    > > "Lucifer" <Lucifer@satanist.nl> schreef in bericht
    > > news:434e041c$1_3@newsgate.x-privat.org...
    > >> > I'm Right; You're Wrong
    > >> > The Problem: Polarity
    > >> >
    > >>
    > >> Snip in story
    > >>
    > >> Considering the fact that this is a nl.-newsgroup you'd better
    > >> translate your story and fuck off with your English
    > >>

    > >
    > > WARNING: off-topic flamebait

    >
    > Speak Dutch or GET OUT...


    ROTFLMAO!!! (dit is helaas wel een Engelse afkorting)
    Als je deze reacties leest, dan kan je toch moeilijk anders dan lachen.

    Iemand die in het Engels schrijft, terechtwijzen in het Engels... dat
    is absurdime =E0 la Monty Python! ("=E0 la" is Frans, g=E9=E9n Arabisch ;-)

    SCHITTEREND!!!!!
    (excuus voor de caps)

    --=20
    Amedee, die het deze keer echt niet kan laten. ;-)


  11. #11
    !An!
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    Re: Tips voor de posters die deze NG met off-topic scheldpartijtjes bevuilen

    Amedee Van Gasse <Amedee.VanGasse@gmail.com> wrote:
    > !An! schreef:
    >
    >> Stefaan <me2@privacy.net> wrote:
    >> > "Lucifer" <Lucifer@satanist.nl> schreef in bericht
    >> > news:434e041c$1_3@newsgate.x-privat.org...
    >> >> > I'm Right; You're Wrong
    >> >> > The Problem: Polarity
    >> >> >
    >> >>
    >> >> Snip in story
    >> >>
    >> >> Considering the fact that this is a nl.-newsgroup you'd better
    >> >> translate your story and fuck off with your English
    >> >>
    >> >
    >> > WARNING: off-topic flamebait

    >>
    >> Speak Dutch or GET OUT...

    >
    > ROTFLMAO!!! (dit is helaas wel een Engelse afkorting)
    > Als je deze reacties leest, dan kan je toch moeilijk anders dan
    > lachen.
    >
    > Iemand die in het Engels schrijft, terechtwijzen in het Engels... dat
    > is absurdime à la Monty Python! ("à la" is Frans, géén Arabisch ;-)
    >
    > SCHITTEREND!!!!!
    > (excuus voor de caps)


    Je mot wat met die rare lui, die alleen nog maar engels kunnen lullen.
    Nederlands is hun moerstaal, maar dat is te moeilijk voor die eikels.
    Blij dat je lol hebt gehad, kan mijn vakantie goed beginnen :-)



  12. #12
    Amedee Van Gasse
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    Re: Tips voor de posters die deze NG met off-topic scheldpartijtjes bevuilen

    !An! schreef:

    > Je mot wat met die rare lui, die alleen nog maar engels kunnen lullen.
    > Nederlands is hun moerstaal, maar dat is te moeilijk voor die eikels.
    > Blij dat je lol hebt gehad, kan mijn vakantie goed beginnen :-)


    Wat bedoel je met "motten", twist zoeken of een klap geven? Ik heb geen
    zin in verbaal geweld noch in fysiek geweld. ;-)

    En is het "de" of "het" moerstaal? Ik veronderstel "de", als het "het"
    was, dan zaten er bij hen waarschijnlijk een paar los die ervan gemaakt
    zijn. :-D

    Toch grappig, he, die subtiele taalverschillen tussen ons? Het verschil
    tussen Vlamingen en Nederlanders is dat ze dezelfde taal spreken. Van
    wie is dat ook alweer...

    --
    Amedee.


  13. #13
    Lucifer
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    Re: Tips voor de posters die deze NG met off-topic scheldpartijtjes bevuilen

    > Amedee Van Gasse wrote:
    >> !An! schreef:
    >>
    >>
    >>>Je mot wat met die rare lui, die alleen nog maar engels kunnen lullen.
    >>>Nederlands is hun moerstaal, maar dat is te moeilijk voor die eikels.
    >>>Blij dat je lol hebt gehad, kan mijn vakantie goed beginnen :-)

    >>
    >>
    >> Wat bedoel je met "motten", twist zoeken of een klap geven? Ik heb geen
    >> zin in verbaal geweld noch in fysiek geweld. ;-)
    >>
    >> En is het "de" of "het" moerstaal? Ik veronderstel "de", als het "het"
    >> was, dan zaten er bij hen waarschijnlijk een paar los die ervan gemaakt
    >> zijn. :-D
    >>
    >> Toch grappig, he, die subtiele taalverschillen tussen ons? Het verschil
    >> tussen Vlamingen en Nederlanders is dat ze dezelfde taal spreken. Van
    >> wie is dat ook alweer...
    >>

    > Toch vind ik dat de Vlamingen beter Nederlands spreken, dan de Nederlanders.


    Ik kan me ook niet aan de indruk onttrekken dat op basisscholen in
    Vlaanderen meer aandacht wordt geschonken aan de taal, als op de
    basisscholen in Nederland.

    --
    Dit was Brandhout
    Goedenavond!



  14. #14
    Amedee Van Gasse
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    Re: Tips voor de posters die deze NG met off-topic scheldpartijtjes bevuilen


    Lucifer schreef:

    > > Amedee Van Gasse wrote:


    > >> Toch grappig, he, die subtiele taalverschillen tussen ons? Het verschil
    > >> tussen Vlamingen en Nederlanders is dat ze dezelfde taal spreken. Van
    > >> wie is dat ook alweer...
    > >>

    > > Toch vind ik dat de Vlamingen beter Nederlands spreken, dan de Nederlan=

    ders.
    >
    > Ik kan me ook niet aan de indruk onttrekken dat op basisscholen in
    > Vlaanderen meer aandacht wordt geschonken aan de taal, als op de
    > basisscholen in Nederland.


    Het is "DAN op de basisscholen..." ;-)

    Daar staat tegenover dat de "bovenmoerdijkers" h=E9=E9l wat mondiger
    zijn. Als je dat negatief wil stellen, dan zeg je dat ze arroganter
    zijn. Maar als je dat positief wil verwoorden, dan noem je dat
    assertiviteit.

    Tenminste, dat is toch wat ik hoor van die paar kennissen die over de
    landsgrens in het onderwijs staan.

    Dus: jullie spreken beter, wij schrijven beter. Hoewel - Hugo grijpt
    dit jaar w=E9=E9r naast de Nobelprijs :-(

    --=20
    Amedee Van Gasse


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