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  1. #1
    Willem
    Re: Supernews on Slander Mission??
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    Thread Starter

    Re: Supernews on Slander Mission??

    Andrew - Supernews <andrew+nonews@supernews.com> wrote
    news:slrnc7h91j.2a5f.andrew+nonews@trinity.superne ws.net
    > On 2004-04-10, Willem <gaatjenietaan@notvalid> wrote:
    >> Andrew - Supernews <andrew+nonews@supernews.com> wrote
    >> news:slrnc7eft0.27sf.andrew+nonews@trinity.superne ws.net


    >>> I admit that, not being the abuse person here, I have no
    >>> idea why the user in question was blocked in the first
    >>> place. But it wasn't anything to do with the above post,
    >>> which is dated some months after the original block.


    >> How can you say that when Jeremy says it does:


    > Because Jeremy didn't say that.


    Supernews still has not explained why Jeremy quoted the fake
    posts at all if they don't have anything to do with the
    block. Until they do, Jeremy said it loud and clear.

    >> Jeremy from Supernews says he has VERIFIED these posts
    >> are not forged and that they speak for themselves. So he
    >> means Supernews has proof they were posted by Mike.


    > He means nothing of the sort
    > (perhaps he should have made this point clearer).


    So what DOES Supernews mean when it says it verified that
    posts were not forged and speak for themselves.

    A customer says he is not the poster of the fake posts, as a
    reply Supernews presents more fakes posts and says they are
    genuine and speak for themselves.

    I say "I did not hide the apple".
    Then you show the public an apple and say "this speaks for
    itself".
    What will 99% of the public think? That you present proof
    the apple was hidden by me.

    That is what Supernews is doing to Mike.

    > We _WILL NOT COMMENT_ on the issue
    > of which of our users made any specific post, or whether
    > two or more posts were made by the same user, because
    > that would be a violation of privacy. Naturally, this
    > means that public discussion of abuse issues is rarely
    > productive (as this thread demonstrates).


    Again you are publicly suggesting the fake posts COULD have
    been made by Mike. It is wrong to bring up a privacy policy
    to imply things about a customer.

    Supernews should research and handle this matter in an
    honest way and stop implying things with showing fake posts
    made with the name of their customers. Therefore I think
    this thread is productive in bringing that out and asking
    you to review the matter fairly.

    >> He means they are related to the reason for blocking.


    > No, that's simply your interpretation of what he meant.


    Supernews posted them in reply to their customer's denial he
    spammed, and said they spoke for themselves. There is no
    other interpretation.

    >> But you from Supernews say something different. What is
    >> going on at Supernews Abuse, Andrew??


    > What is going on is very simple: we won't violate our
    > privacy policies simply to "win" a debate in public. If
    > the "Artist Mike" poster wants his block on posting to be
    > reviewed, then he can simply get his ISP to contact our
    > abuse staff. Note: paying customers (that is: individual
    > subscribers or corporate account holders themselves as
    > opposed to their end-users) can contact abuse directly,
    > but end-users of ISP outsource customers are expected to
    > have their ISP contact us on their behalf.


    Your privacy policy is not the issue. Supernews blocked a
    customer based on fake posts. Supernews even posted some
    examples, adding they were NOT forgeries and spoke for
    themselves. The issue is that Supernews blocks innocent
    customers based on fake posts and maybe even personal
    reasons of their employees.

    I happen to believe Mike when he says he HAS written to his
    ISP and to Supernews. Who wouldn't contact their provider
    when they are wrongly blocked?? When I see the way Jeremy
    implies things with those fake posts, I can understand Mike
    was ON HIS OWN against you guys and you Supernews wasn't
    fair about it so he posted about the matter. I would too.

    > Neither individual subscribers nor outsource end-users
    > ever get their posting privileges revoked lightly. But it
    > should be obvious that the vast majority of people who
    > _do_ get blocked will claim that they were in fact
    > blocked falsely: either because they were genuinely
    > innocent, or because they are intentionally spamming and
    > therefore lying about it, or they are guilty of some form
    > of abuse other than simple spamming and believem for
    > whatever reason, that their conduct was justified.


    There goes Supernews implying again. "It should be obvious".
    Supernews, I'm sorry but it is becoming more and more
    obvious that this matter of your logs leading to wrong
    blocks is not handled in an honest way.

    > (As an example of such justification, see the assertion
    > that's been made several times in this thread that simply
    > being a paying customer confers some sort of right to use
    > our service for promotional purposes - which is
    > absolutely not the case.)


    That has nothing to do with the block for posts someone
    didn't make. Supernews keeps mixing it up, the customer is
    trapped: now he got blocked for spamming, now he got blocked
    for fake posts.

    WJ
    --
    http://www.demon.nl/eng/support/newsgroups/index.html
    http://tinyurl.com/yuxgq
    http://tinyurl.com/yvrmo







  2. #2
    dave
    Re: Supernews on Slander Mission??
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    Thread Starter

    Re: Supernews on Slander Mission??

    in article 4079532e$1$85244$c3e8da3@news.astraweb.com, Willem at
    gaatjenietaan@notvalid@ac wrote on 04/11/2004 7:16 AM:

    > Andrew - Supernews <andrew+nonews@supernews.com> wrote
    > news:slrnc7h91j.2a5f.andrew+nonews@trinity.superne ws.net
    >> On 2004-04-10, Willem <gaatjenietaan@notvalid> wrote:
    >>> Andrew - Supernews <andrew+nonews@supernews.com> wrote
    >>> news:slrnc7eft0.27sf.andrew+nonews@trinity.superne ws.net

    >
    >>>> I admit that, not being the abuse person here, I have no
    >>>> idea why the user in question was blocked in the first
    >>>> place. But it wasn't anything to do with the above post,
    >>>> which is dated some months after the original block.

    >
    >>> How can you say that when Jeremy says it does:

    >
    >> Because Jeremy didn't say that.

    >
    > Supernews still has not explained why Jeremy quoted the fake
    > posts at all if they don't have anything to do with the
    > block. Until they do, Jeremy said it loud and clear.
    >
    >>> Jeremy from Supernews says he has VERIFIED these posts
    >>> are not forged and that they speak for themselves. So he
    >>> means Supernews has proof they were posted by Mike.

    >
    >> He means nothing of the sort
    >> (perhaps he should have made this point clearer).

    >
    > So what DOES Supernews mean when it says it verified that
    > posts were not forged and speak for themselves.
    >
    > A customer says he is not the poster of the fake posts, as a
    > reply Supernews presents more fakes posts and says they are
    > genuine and speak for themselves.
    >
    > I say "I did not hide the apple".
    > Then you show the public an apple and say "this speaks for
    > itself".
    > What will 99% of the public think? That you present proof
    > the apple was hidden by me.
    >
    > That is what Supernews is doing to Mike.
    >
    >> We _WILL NOT COMMENT_ on the issue
    >> of which of our users made any specific post, or whether
    >> two or more posts were made by the same user, because
    >> that would be a violation of privacy. Naturally, this
    >> means that public discussion of abuse issues is rarely
    >> productive (as this thread demonstrates).

    >
    > Again you are publicly suggesting the fake posts COULD have
    > been made by Mike. It is wrong to bring up a privacy policy
    > to imply things about a customer.
    >
    > Supernews should research and handle this matter in an
    > honest way and stop implying things with showing fake posts
    > made with the name of their customers. Therefore I think
    > this thread is productive in bringing that out and asking
    > you to review the matter fairly.
    >
    >>> He means they are related to the reason for blocking.

    >
    >> No, that's simply your interpretation of what he meant.

    >
    > Supernews posted them in reply to their customer's denial he
    > spammed, and said they spoke for themselves. There is no
    > other interpretation.
    >
    >>> But you from Supernews say something different. What is
    >>> going on at Supernews Abuse, Andrew??

    >
    >> What is going on is very simple: we won't violate our
    >> privacy policies simply to "win" a debate in public. If
    >> the "Artist Mike" poster wants his block on posting to be
    >> reviewed, then he can simply get his ISP to contact our
    >> abuse staff. Note: paying customers (that is: individual
    >> subscribers or corporate account holders themselves as
    >> opposed to their end-users) can contact abuse directly,
    >> but end-users of ISP outsource customers are expected to
    >> have their ISP contact us on their behalf.

    >
    > Your privacy policy is not the issue. Supernews blocked a
    > customer based on fake posts. Supernews even posted some
    > examples, adding they were NOT forgeries and spoke for
    > themselves. The issue is that Supernews blocks innocent
    > customers based on fake posts and maybe even personal
    > reasons of their employees.
    >
    > I happen to believe Mike when he says he HAS written to his
    > ISP and to Supernews. Who wouldn't contact their provider
    > when they are wrongly blocked?? When I see the way Jeremy
    > implies things with those fake posts, I can understand Mike
    > was ON HIS OWN against you guys and you Supernews wasn't
    > fair about it so he posted about the matter. I would too.
    >
    >> Neither individual subscribers nor outsource end-users
    >> ever get their posting privileges revoked lightly. But it
    >> should be obvious that the vast majority of people who
    >> _do_ get blocked will claim that they were in fact
    >> blocked falsely: either because they were genuinely
    >> innocent, or because they are intentionally spamming and
    >> therefore lying about it, or they are guilty of some form
    >> of abuse other than simple spamming and believem for
    >> whatever reason, that their conduct was justified.

    >
    > There goes Supernews implying again. "It should be obvious".
    > Supernews, I'm sorry but it is becoming more and more
    > obvious that this matter of your logs leading to wrong
    > blocks is not handled in an honest way.
    >
    >> (As an example of such justification, see the assertion
    >> that's been made several times in this thread that simply
    >> being a paying customer confers some sort of right to use
    >> our service for promotional purposes - which is
    >> absolutely not the case.)

    >
    > That has nothing to do with the block for posts someone
    > didn't make. Supernews keeps mixing it up, the customer is
    > trapped: now he got blocked for spamming, now he got blocked
    > for fake posts.
    >
    > WJ
    > --
    > http://www.demon.nl/eng/support/newsgroups/index.html
    > http://tinyurl.com/yuxgq
    > http://tinyurl.com/yvrmo
    >
    >
    >
    >
    >
    >



    All good questions that Supernews will not answer because they have no
    reason to answer such questions. They are above answering such questions.
    They make the rules, and if you don't like the rules, you can go screw a
    light socket. They just don't care. They are big enough that one paying
    customer ... even one that makes noise in a few newsgroups... will not be a
    problem for them. They don't care.

    If a person decides to pay for their services, or their ISP happens to
    choose them for news service... that person has better be aware that
    Supernews can and does block people that they don't like. They use fake
    messages as an excuse, or they just make a rule if they need it.

    That is how they do business.




  3. #3
    Mike...
    Re: Supernews on Slander Mission??
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    Thread Starter

    Re: Supernews on Slander Mission??

    in article 407978a6.1b89.1b2@supernews.com, Jeremy Nixon - Supernews at
    jnixon@supernews.com wrote on 04/11/2004 10:04 AM:

    > Willem <gaatjenietaan@notvalid@ac> wrote:
    >
    >> Supernews still has not explained why Jeremy quoted the fake
    >> posts at all if they don't have anything to do with the
    >> block. Until they do, Jeremy said it loud and clear.

    >
    > Actually, I did, repeatedly. If you choose to ignore it so you can
    > continue to lie, there's not much anyone can do about it.
    >
    > And now that it's clear what Mike really wants, that facts do not concern
    > him, that he has no interest whatsoever in actually addressing the
    > situation, that he will gladly lie to further his ends, that there is no
    > benefit to attempting to have a conversation with him, and that he is
    > only saying any of this to stir up trouble and get attention, I am really
    > not interested in discussing the matter further. Let him have his little
    > tantrum.
    >
    > There is absolutely no point in addressing anything he says.


    So keep your nose out of this.

    Supernews has a policy to censor people that they do not like, and they will
    use anything as reason enough to accomplish that censoring.

    Supernews has a policy to not publish their "evidence" even when the injured
    party requests that such "evidence" be published.



    --
    Mike

    * Logo Design *
    Put some fun in your next logo!

    Site at: http://www.artistmike.com




  4. #4
    Willem
    Re: Supernews on Slander Mission??
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    Thread Starter

    Re: Supernews on Slander Mission??

    Jeremy Nixon - Supernews <jnixon@supernews.com> wrote
    news:407978a6.1b89.1b2@supernews.com
    > Willem <gaatjenietaan@notvalid@ac> wrote:


    >> Supernews still has not explained why Jeremy quoted the
    >> fake posts at all if they don't have anything to do with
    >> the block. Until they do, Jeremy said it loud and clear.


    > Actually, I did, repeatedly. If you choose to ignore it
    > so you can continue to lie, there's not much anyone can
    > do about it.


    No you did not. If these fake posts had nothing to do with
    the real Mike or blocking him, you had no need to bring them
    up AND say they were not forged and spoke for themselves.

    > And now that it's clear what Mike really wants, that
    > facts do not concern him, that he has no interest
    > whatsoever in actually addressing the situation, that he
    > will gladly lie to further his ends, that there is no
    > benefit to attempting to have a conversation with him,
    > and that he is only saying any of this to stir up trouble
    > and get attention, I am really not interested in
    > discussing the matter further. Let him have his little
    > tantrum.


    What Mike wants is not my issue. My issue is if Supernews
    blocks customers on false evidence or personal matters with
    staff. Now that you have called ME a liar twice too, it
    seems easy to believe blocking will be done if Supernews
    staff dislikes what their customers write.

    > There is absolutely no point in addressing anything
    > he says.


    Maybe the addressing is done the wrong way. The more I read
    about all this, the more I think the only way of addressing
    this is to lift the block.

    WJ
    --
    http://www.demon.nl/eng/support/newsgroups/index.html
    http://tinyurl.com/yuxgq
    http://tinyurl.com/yvrmo






  5. #5
    Jeremy Nixon - Supernews
    Re: Supernews on Slander Mission??
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    Thread Starter

    Re: Supernews on Slander Mission??

    Willem <gaatjenietaan@notvalid@ac> wrote:

    > No you did not. If these fake posts had nothing to do with
    > the real Mike or blocking him, you had no need to bring them
    > up AND say they were not forged and spoke for themselves.


    I was not, and am not, going to post anything confidential. I cited
    those posts to make the point using something that was available to
    the general public. How many times do I have to say it?

    > What Mike wants is not my issue. My issue is if Supernews
    > blocks customers on false evidence or personal matters with
    > staff.


    Okay. Well, we don't.

    > Now that you have called ME a liar twice too, it
    > seems easy to believe blocking will be done if Supernews
    > staff dislikes what their customers write.


    Check Uni's headers. He posts from our server. We haven't blocked him.

    > Maybe the addressing is done the wrong way. The more I read
    > about all this, the more I think the only way of addressing
    > this is to lift the block.


    The more I read about all this, the more I think the block is justified.
    And I am no longer willing to get involved in that decision one way or
    the other.

    --
    Jeremy | jnixon@supernews.com

  6. #6
    Rebecca Ore
    Re: Supernews on Slander Mission??
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    Thread Starter

    Re: Supernews on Slander Mission??

    "Willem" <gaatjenietaan@notvalid@ac> writes:

    >
    > I happen to believe Mike when he says he HAS written to his
    > ISP and to Supernews. Who wouldn't contact their provider
    > when they are wrongly blocked?? When I see the way Jeremy
    > implies things with those fake posts, I can understand Mike
    > was ON HIS OWN against you guys and you Supernews wasn't
    > fair about it so he posted about the matter. I would too.


    I don't believe anything Mike says because he's behaving like a nut
    case.

    One of his socks posts just the url in response to questions.

    He says spammer things like "I paid for the service so I should be
    able to post what I want."

    You're either another sock or you're naive.

    --
    Rebecca Ore
    http://mysite.verizon.net/rebecca.ore

  7. #7
    Aratzio
    Re: Supernews on Slander Mission??
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    Re: Supernews on Slander Mission??

    On Sun, 11 Apr 2004 18:50:59 GMT, Rebecca Ore
    <ogoense.net@verizon.net> got double secret probation because:

    >"Willem" <gaatjenietaan@notvalid@ac> writes:
    >
    >>
    >> I happen to believe Mike when he says he HAS written to his
    >> ISP and to Supernews. Who wouldn't contact their provider
    >> when they are wrongly blocked?? When I see the way Jeremy
    >> implies things with those fake posts, I can understand Mike
    >> was ON HIS OWN against you guys and you Supernews wasn't
    >> fair about it so he posted about the matter. I would too.

    >
    >I don't believe anything Mike says because he's behaving like a nut
    >case.
    >
    >One of his socks posts just the url in response to questions.
    >
    >He says spammer things like "I paid for the service so I should be
    >able to post what I want."
    >
    >You're either another sock or you're naive.


    If it is a sock it is a well darned one, which usually precludes
    Mikey. I just read someone with an axe to grind and is not actually
    interested in the facts. Just the statements that fit some
    preconceived notion.

    'Ratz




    --

    A Number 1, Grade A, Prime USDA 'Ratz
    Accept No Substitute


  8. #8
    Anthony Edwards
    Re: Supernews on Slander Mission??
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    Thread Starter

    Re: Supernews on Slander Mission??

    On Sun, 11 Apr 2004 20:23:59 +0200, Willem <gaatjenietaan@notvalid> wrote:

    > What Mike wants is not my issue. My issue is if Supernews
    > blocks customers on false evidence or personal matters with
    > staff.


    Supernews doesn't, and never has done.

    --
    Anthony Edwards
    anthony@catfish.nildram.co.uk

  9. #9
    Demetrius Zeluff
    Re: Supernews on Slander Mission??
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    Re: Supernews on Slander Mission??

    "Willem" <gaatjenietaan@notvalid@ac> wrote in news:40798d3e$0$85210$c3e8da3
    @news.astraweb.com:

    > What Mike wants is not my issue. My issue is if Supernews
    > blocks customers on false evidence or personal matters with
    > staff. Now that you have called ME a liar twice too, it
    > seems easy to believe blocking will be done if Supernews
    > staff dislikes what their customers write.


    Have a look for posts by Uni.

    Then look which NSP Uni uses.

    Artist Mike is a trolling, nym-shifting, net-abusing fuckwit. That's not
    why his posts are filtered. His posts are filtered because he's a spammer.


    --
    Kill-filers:
    My screen name changes,
    My email address doesn't.

  10. #10
    Demetrius Zeluff
    Re: Supernews on Slander Mission??
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    Thread Starter

    Re: Supernews on Slander Mission??

    Rebecca Ore <ogoense.net@verizon.net> wrote in
    news:m34qrqtkkv.fsf@pyrophore.ogo.invalid:

    > You're either another sock or you're naive.


    s/naive/a fuck-headed nong/



    --
    Kill-filers:
    My screen name changes,
    My email address doesn't.

  11. #11
    Mike...
    Re: Supernews on Slander Mission??
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    Re: Supernews on Slander Mission??

    in article 40798d3e$0$85210$c3e8da3@news.astraweb.com, Willem at
    gaatjenietaan@notvalid@ac wrote on 04/11/2004 11:23 AM:


    > What Mike wants is not my issue. My issue is if Supernews
    > blocks customers on false evidence or personal matters with
    > staff. Now that you have called ME a liar twice too, it
    > seems easy to believe blocking will be done if Supernews
    > staff dislikes what their customers write.



    This is the issue at hand... they have chosen to NOT keep their activities
    private. They have chosen to take little ArtistMike on in a newsgroup and
    now their "policies" are up for public debate. They have chosen to write
    and actually show those policies in action, in a public forum.

    Now the door is open ... they can't unring the bell.

    ":^) ®

    Supernews has written that they make policy upon personal opinions about
    clients. Supernews "does not care" about "ArtistMike" at this point because
    he dares to take his issue to the public in a public forum.

    How dare he do that!

    If only he would have kissed their ass and behaved like a good little user.

    But no... he has to go and have an opinion that does not match up with their
    opinions about spam, about the amount of messages that one person can post,
    his opinions don't match theirs and he has the balls to post his opinions in
    newsgroups ... PUBLIC NEWSGROUPS! How dare he do that?








    >
    >> There is absolutely no point in addressing anything
    >> he says.

    >
    > Maybe the addressing is done the wrong way. The more I read
    > about all this, the more I think the only way of addressing
    > this is to lift the block.



    They can't do that. They can't. They have to "save face"... they can't be
    seen as backing down to a nobody like "ArtistMike".

    They are stuck. They have no place to go. They can either battle it out in
    the newsgroups and attempt to "win"... or they can keep their "policy" to
    themselves and slink back under the rock they were under.

    ":^) ®



  12. #12
    Mike...
    Re: Supernews on Slander Mission??
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    Re: Supernews on Slander Mission??

    in article 40799043.1f64.370@supernews.com, Jeremy Nixon - Supernews at
    jnixon@supernews.com wrote on 04/11/2004 11:39 AM:

    > Willem <gaatjenietaan@notvalid@ac> wrote:
    >
    >> No you did not. If these fake posts had nothing to do with
    >> the real Mike or blocking him, you had no need to bring them
    >> up AND say they were not forged and spoke for themselves.

    >
    > I was not, and am not, going to post anything confidential. I cited
    > those posts to make the point using something that was available to
    > the general public. How many times do I have to say it?


    If you have some evidence ... messages that I posted to a public newsgroup,
    that was "available to the general public" then post it to support your
    claim that I spammed. Otherwise you have blocked me based upon your own
    personal whim with nothing to back up your decision.

    I doubt that you will post anything because you have nothing to support your
    claim. You only have your personal dislike for my attitude and that is the
    only reason you blocked me.

    Once again, your own actions support the claim that you have no evidence.


    --
    Mike

    * Logo Design *
    Put some fun in your next logo!

    Site at: http://www.artistmike.com








  13. #13
    Jeremy Nixon - Supernews
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    Re: Supernews on Slander Mission??

    Mike... <mike@artistmike.com> wrote:

    > But no... he has to go and have an opinion that does not match up with their
    > opinions about spam, about the amount of messages that one person can post,
    > his opinions don't match theirs and he has the balls to post his opinions in
    > newsgroups ... PUBLIC NEWSGROUPS! How dare he do that?


    Nice straw man, but I don't think it'll fly.

    > They can't do that. They can't. They have to "save face"... they can't be
    > seen as backing down to a nobody like "ArtistMike".


    Our abuse manager could remove the block tomorrow, for all I care. I wouldn't
    try to stop him.

    --
    Jeremy | jnixon@supernews.com

  14. #14
    AlwaysCorrect
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    Re: Supernews on Slander Mission??

    in article n35j705llafk7p0lr638smj6ecv3ct3h26@4ax.com, Aratzio at
    aratzio@lalalala.com wrote on 04/11/2004 11:56 AM:

    > I just read someone with an axe to grind and is not actually
    > interested in the facts. Just the statements that fit some
    > preconceived notion.



    Not like you of course... with no preconceived notions.

    hahahaha.



  15. #15
    AlwaysCorrect
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    Re: Supernews on Slander Mission??

    in article 107j7dulgtab2a1@news.supernews.com, Anthony Edwards at
    usenet@catfish.nildram.co.uk wrote on 04/11/2004 12:34 PM:

    > On Sun, 11 Apr 2004 20:23:59 +0200, Willem <gaatjenietaan@notvalid> wrote:
    >
    >> What Mike wants is not my issue. My issue is if Supernews
    >> blocks customers on false evidence or personal matters with
    >> staff.

    >
    > Supernews doesn't, and never has done.



    Well, they did it with Mike.




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