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  1. #1
    Eric Rescorla
    Paper announcement: Is finding security holes a good idea?
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    Thread Starter

    Paper announcement: Is finding security holes a good idea?

    Bugtraq readers might be interested in this paper:

    Is finding security holes a good idea?

    Eric Rescorla
    RTFM, Inc. <http://www.rtfm.com/>

    A large amount of effort is expended every year on finding and patching
    security holes. The underlying rationale for this activity is that it
    increases welfare by decreasing the number of bugs available for
    discovery and exploitation by bad guys, thus reducing the total cost of
    intrusions. Given the amount of effort expended, we would expect to see
    noticeable results in terms of improved software quality. However, our
    investigation does not support a substantial quality improvement--the
    data does not allow us to exclude the possibility that the rate of bug
    finding in any given piece of software is constant over long periods of
    time. If there is little or no quality improvement, then we have no
    reason to believe that that the disclosure of bugs reduces the overall
    cost of intrusions.

    The paper can be downloaded from:
    http://www.rtfm.com/bugrate.pdf
    http://www.rtfm.com/bugrate.ps


  2. #2
    Oliver Friedrichs
    Paper announcement: Is finding security holes a good idea?
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    Thread Starter

    Re: Paper announcement: Is finding security holes a good idea?

    Eric, some thoughts (this is not an argument for or against
    full-disclosure, please take it as constructive criticism):

    After reading your paper I agree that the data you used may support your
    arguments, however, you missed some important points. You don't take into
    account the "type" of vulnerabilities being found in each of the
    applications that you've analyzed (you address Severity, but thats a
    seperate variable). I would argue that if you did that, you would come to
    some different conclusions. I would also argue that the caliber of bugs
    being found has increased quite substantially. Easy to find, easy to
    exploit vulnerabilities have for the most part been exhausted in
    applications that have been "sufficiently" scrutinized. The bugs being
    found today (in applications that have had a sufficient amount of
    scrutiny) are significantly more complex than a number of years ago (in
    the same application). In the early 1990's, you could find a common
    buffer overflow (using a blatant strcpy/strcat) in many common core
    Internet applications. Today, the vulnerabilities being discovered in
    these same applications are more complex off-by-one, signed/unsigned
    integer, compilar casting, or byte/character processing problems. Some
    good examples of this behaviour are sendmail and BIND. "Type" also infers
    the skill level required for a researcher to find a given vulnerability,
    due to it's difficulty, with some types being easy to find, while others
    extremely difficult.

    Entirely new classes of vulnerabilities are rarely discovered (but they
    still are). There will only be a finite quantity of these, and once those
    have been identified, the bar can't go any higher. Of course there can
    only be a finite number of vulnerabilities in any given application as
    well.

    Another two metrics that you don't measure is the amount of scrutiny that
    a particular application has had, or the size of an application. A large
    application that has had 30 vulnerabilities found in it by one researcher
    over 10 years cannot be compared to a small application that has had 30
    vulnerabilities found in it by 200 researchers in 1 year. There were 30
    vulnerabilities found in both, but the latter application will have
    improved in quality quite significantly, while the former not (assuming
    that both applications have the same average number of vulnerabilities per
    line of code). Unfortunately scrutiny is likely something that you cannot
    measure in many applications.

    So, on average I would argue that software quality (in terms of
    vulnerabilities being discovered) has improved for a given application
    that has, and continues to be, sufficiently scrutinized (not including
    substantial updates that introduce new bugs). You simply don't have all
    of the data points to prove it, and therefore may be missing important
    conclusions. I may be able to take specific applications, where we have
    sufficient visibility into scrutiny, size, and type/difficulty of
    vulnerabilities, and prove your theory wrong (sendmail is a possibility).

    My conclusion isn't based on the numbers, but simply on my experience with
    researching vulnerabilities since the early 1990's.

    Oliver Friedrichs
    Sr. Manager - DeepSight
    Symantec, Inc. (650) 381-8045

    > Bugtraq readers might be interested in this paper:
    >
    > Is finding security holes a good idea?
    >
    > Eric Rescorla
    > RTFM, Inc. <http://www.rtfm.com/>
    >
    > A large amount of effort is expended every year on finding and patching
    > security holes. The underlying rationale for this activity is that it
    > increases welfare by decreasing the number of bugs available for
    > discovery and exploitation by bad guys, thus reducing the total cost of
    > intrusions. Given the amount of effort expended, we would expect to see
    > noticeable results in terms of improved software quality. However, our
    > investigation does not support a substantial quality improvement--the
    > data does not allow us to exclude the possibility that the rate of bug
    > finding in any given piece of software is constant over long periods of
    > time. If there is little or no quality improvement, then we have no
    > reason to believe that that the disclosure of bugs reduces the overall
    > cost of intrusions.
    >
    > The paper can be downloaded from:
    > http://www.rtfm.com/bugrate.pdf
    > http://www.rtfm.com/bugrate.ps
    >



  3. #3
    Kurt Seifried
    Paper announcement: Is finding security holes a good idea?
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    Thread Starter

    Re: Paper announcement: Is finding security holes a good idea?

    > Bugtraq readers might be interested in this paper:
    >
    > Is finding security holes a good idea?
    >
    > Eric Rescorla
    > RTFM, Inc. <http://www.rtfm.com/>
    >
    > The paper can be downloaded from:
    > http://www.rtfm.com/bugrate.pdf
    > http://www.rtfm.com/bugrate.ps


    This is a very interesting read. However there is one main problem:

    It doesn't matter if finding security holes or not is a "good idea" or cost
    effective since there are a number of groups for which finding bugs is a
    vested interest:

    1) "Blackhats" and their sponsors - you want to break into a system, you
    need to either find a system with known issues that are unaddressed or find
    new issues to exploit. Seeing as how Blackhats are now sometimes in the
    employ of spammers and other groups for which the discovery and exploitation
    of security flaws directly allows them to make money we have a powerful
    group with money and a vested interest in finding flaws and exploiting them.

    2) "Penetration testers" and their sponsors - you want to break into a
    system, you need to either find a system with known issues that are
    unaddressed or find new issues to exploit. Seeing as how Penetration testers
    are often hired by companies in order to run assessments for which the
    discovery and exploitation of security flaws directly allows them to make
    money we have a powerful group with money and a vested interest in finding
    flaws and exploiting them.

    3) "Security vendors" and their sponsors - you want to sell a third party
    product that prevents exploitation of buffer overflows for example there
    needs to be a serious and identifiable problem with buffer overflows being
    exploited in products and systems people want to secure. Same goes for
    firewalls, viruses, etc. Imagine if people stopped writing viruses and
    stopped spreading them. Significant amounts of money would be saved in
    corporate IT budgets (typically anywhere from $10 to $100 per user for the
    software alone).

    So with these three large groups (and numerous other classes of people and
    organizations with a vested interest in finding flaws) it doesn't matter or
    not whether it's a good idea. The simple fact of the matter is that it will
    continue.

    Kurt Seifried, kurt@seifried.org
    A15B BEE5 B391 B9AD B0EF
    AEB0 AD63 0B4E AD56 E574
    http://seifried.org/security/




  4. #4
    Benjamin Franz
    Paper announcement: Is finding security holes a good idea?
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    Thread Starter

    Re: Paper announcement: Is finding security holes a good idea?

    On Wed, 21 Jan 2004, Eric Rescorla wrote:

    > Bugtraq readers might be interested in this paper:
    >
    > Is finding security holes a good idea?
    >
    > Eric Rescorla
    > RTFM, Inc. <http://www.rtfm.com/>
    >
    > A large amount of effort is expended every year on finding and patching
    > security holes. The underlying rationale for this activity is that it
    > increases welfare by decreasing the number of bugs available for
    > discovery and exploitation by bad guys, thus reducing the total cost of
    > intrusions. Given the amount of effort expended, we would expect to see
    > noticeable results in terms of improved software quality. However, our
    > investigation does not support a substantial quality improvement--the
    > data does not allow us to exclude the possibility that the rate of bug
    > finding in any given piece of software is constant over long periods of
    > time. If there is little or no quality improvement, then we have no
    > reason to believe that that the disclosure of bugs reduces the overall
    > cost of intrusions.


    It is a very weakly justified assumption that the number of Black Hat
    exploitations following Black Hat Disclosure is 'almost certainly less'
    than the 'peak rate after (Public) disclosure'. The rest of your paper
    rests heavily on that assumption - and it in fact nearly pre-determines
    your conclusion.

    It only takes _ONE_ more Warhol Worm from non-public security bugs than
    publically disclosed ones to invalidate your argument (this is obviously
    true in the _converse_ as well). This is because the _COST_ of such a worm
    is magnified beyond reason by the network. Each individual worm represents
    a large fraction of _all_ such intrusions and their cost. This is NOT a
    large statistical universe. Individual events skew the whole dataset. One
    major exploit may cost as much as thousands or even millions of smaller
    exploits.

    A bug allowing complete remote compromise of a box that is merely
    _connected_ to the net is of a completely different magnitude than one
    that causes Mozilla to mis-display a URL. Treating the two bugs as
    comparable is a significant error. It is not justified to believe that
    they are _generated_, _discovered_, _exploited_, or _fixed_ at the same
    rates or that they have even order of magnitude similiar costs.

    There remain too many large unknowns to justify _any_ good conclusions re
    bug hunting and disclosure vs the cost of intrusions.

    --
    Benjamin Franz

    On that of which one cannot speak, one must remain silent.
    ---Wittgenstein



  5. #5
    Oliver Friedrichs
    Paper announcement: Is finding security holes a good idea?
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    Thread Starter

    Re: Paper announcement: Is finding security holes a good idea?

    Eric, some thoughts (this is not an argument for or against
    full-disclosure, please take it as constructive criticism):

    After reading your paper I agree that the data you used may support your
    arguments, however, you missed some important points. You don't take into
    account the "type" of vulnerabilities being found in each of the
    applications that you've analyzed (you address Severity, but thats a
    seperate variable). I would argue that if you did that, you would come to
    some different conclusions. I would also argue that the caliber of bugs
    being found has increased quite substantially. Easy to find, easy to
    exploit vulnerabilities have for the most part been exhausted in
    applications that have been "sufficiently" scrutinized. The bugs being
    found today (in applications that have had a sufficient amount of
    scrutiny) are significantly more complex than a number of years ago (in
    the same application). In the early 1990's, you could find a common
    buffer overflow (using a blatant strcpy/strcat) in many common core
    Internet applications. Today, the vulnerabilities being discovered in
    these same applications are more complex off-by-one, signed/unsigned
    integer, compilar casting, or byte/character processing problems. Some
    good examples of this behaviour are sendmail and BIND. "Type" also infers
    the skill level required for a researcher to find a given vulnerability,
    due to it's difficulty, with some types being easy to find, while others
    extremely difficult.

    Entirely new classes of vulnerabilities are rarely discovered (but they
    still are). There will only be a finite quantity of these, and once those
    have been identified, the bar can't go any higher. Of course there can
    only be a finite number of vulnerabilities in any given application as
    well.

    Another two metrics that you don't measure is the amount of scrutiny that
    a particular application has had, or the size of an application. A large
    application that has had 30 vulnerabilities found in it by one researcher
    over 10 years cannot be compared to a small application that has had 30
    vulnerabilities found in it by 200 researchers in 1 year. There were 30
    vulnerabilities found in both, but the latter application will have
    improved in quality quite significantly, while the former not (assuming
    that both applications have the same average number of vulnerabilities per
    line of code). Unfortunately scrutiny is likely something that you cannot
    measure in many applications.

    So, on average I would argue that software quality (in terms of
    vulnerabilities being discovered) has improved for a given application
    that has, and continues to be, sufficiently scrutinized (not including
    substantial updates that introduce new bugs). You simply don't have all
    of the data points to prove it, and therefore may be missing important
    conclusions. I may be able to take specific applications, where we have
    sufficient visibility into scrutiny, size, and type/difficulty of
    vulnerabilities, and prove your theory wrong (sendmail is a possibility).

    My conclusion isn't based on the numbers, but simply on my experience with
    researching vulnerabilities since the early 1990's.

    Oliver Friedrichs
    Sr. Manager - DeepSight
    Symantec, Inc. (650) 381-8045

    > Bugtraq readers might be interested in this paper:
    >
    > Is finding security holes a good idea?
    >
    > Eric Rescorla
    > RTFM, Inc. <http://www.rtfm.com/>
    >
    > A large amount of effort is expended every year on finding and patching
    > security holes. The underlying rationale for this activity is that it
    > increases welfare by decreasing the number of bugs available for
    > discovery and exploitation by bad guys, thus reducing the total cost of
    > intrusions. Given the amount of effort expended, we would expect to see
    > noticeable results in terms of improved software quality. However, our
    > investigation does not support a substantial quality improvement--the
    > data does not allow us to exclude the possibility that the rate of bug
    > finding in any given piece of software is constant over long periods of
    > time. If there is little or no quality improvement, then we have no
    > reason to believe that that the disclosure of bugs reduces the overall
    > cost of intrusions.
    >
    > The paper can be downloaded from:
    > http://www.rtfm.com/bugrate.pdf
    > http://www.rtfm.com/bugrate.ps
    >



  6. #6
    Kurt Seifried
    Paper announcement: Is finding security holes a good idea?
    Gast
    n/a Berichten
    Berichten zijn liked



    Thread Starter

    Re: Paper announcement: Is finding security holes a good idea?

    > Bugtraq readers might be interested in this paper:
    >
    > Is finding security holes a good idea?
    >
    > Eric Rescorla
    > RTFM, Inc. <http://www.rtfm.com/>
    >
    > The paper can be downloaded from:
    > http://www.rtfm.com/bugrate.pdf
    > http://www.rtfm.com/bugrate.ps


    This is a very interesting read. However there is one main problem:

    It doesn't matter if finding security holes or not is a "good idea" or cost
    effective since there are a number of groups for which finding bugs is a
    vested interest:

    1) "Blackhats" and their sponsors - you want to break into a system, you
    need to either find a system with known issues that are unaddressed or find
    new issues to exploit. Seeing as how Blackhats are now sometimes in the
    employ of spammers and other groups for which the discovery and exploitation
    of security flaws directly allows them to make money we have a powerful
    group with money and a vested interest in finding flaws and exploiting them.

    2) "Penetration testers" and their sponsors - you want to break into a
    system, you need to either find a system with known issues that are
    unaddressed or find new issues to exploit. Seeing as how Penetration testers
    are often hired by companies in order to run assessments for which the
    discovery and exploitation of security flaws directly allows them to make
    money we have a powerful group with money and a vested interest in finding
    flaws and exploiting them.

    3) "Security vendors" and their sponsors - you want to sell a third party
    product that prevents exploitation of buffer overflows for example there
    needs to be a serious and identifiable problem with buffer overflows being
    exploited in products and systems people want to secure. Same goes for
    firewalls, viruses, etc. Imagine if people stopped writing viruses and
    stopped spreading them. Significant amounts of money would be saved in
    corporate IT budgets (typically anywhere from $10 to $100 per user for the
    software alone).

    So with these three large groups (and numerous other classes of people and
    organizations with a vested interest in finding flaws) it doesn't matter or
    not whether it's a good idea. The simple fact of the matter is that it will
    continue.

    Kurt Seifried, kurt@seifried.org
    A15B BEE5 B391 B9AD B0EF
    AEB0 AD63 0B4E AD56 E574
    http://seifried.org/security/




  7. #7
    Benjamin Franz
    Paper announcement: Is finding security holes a good idea?
    Gast
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    Thread Starter

    Re: Paper announcement: Is finding security holes a good idea?

    On Wed, 21 Jan 2004, Eric Rescorla wrote:

    > Bugtraq readers might be interested in this paper:
    >
    > Is finding security holes a good idea?
    >
    > Eric Rescorla
    > RTFM, Inc. <http://www.rtfm.com/>
    >
    > A large amount of effort is expended every year on finding and patching
    > security holes. The underlying rationale for this activity is that it
    > increases welfare by decreasing the number of bugs available for
    > discovery and exploitation by bad guys, thus reducing the total cost of
    > intrusions. Given the amount of effort expended, we would expect to see
    > noticeable results in terms of improved software quality. However, our
    > investigation does not support a substantial quality improvement--the
    > data does not allow us to exclude the possibility that the rate of bug
    > finding in any given piece of software is constant over long periods of
    > time. If there is little or no quality improvement, then we have no
    > reason to believe that that the disclosure of bugs reduces the overall
    > cost of intrusions.


    It is a very weakly justified assumption that the number of Black Hat
    exploitations following Black Hat Disclosure is 'almost certainly less'
    than the 'peak rate after (Public) disclosure'. The rest of your paper
    rests heavily on that assumption - and it in fact nearly pre-determines
    your conclusion.

    It only takes _ONE_ more Warhol Worm from non-public security bugs than
    publically disclosed ones to invalidate your argument (this is obviously
    true in the _converse_ as well). This is because the _COST_ of such a worm
    is magnified beyond reason by the network. Each individual worm represents
    a large fraction of _all_ such intrusions and their cost. This is NOT a
    large statistical universe. Individual events skew the whole dataset. One
    major exploit may cost as much as thousands or even millions of smaller
    exploits.

    A bug allowing complete remote compromise of a box that is merely
    _connected_ to the net is of a completely different magnitude than one
    that causes Mozilla to mis-display a URL. Treating the two bugs as
    comparable is a significant error. It is not justified to believe that
    they are _generated_, _discovered_, _exploited_, or _fixed_ at the same
    rates or that they have even order of magnitude similiar costs.

    There remain too many large unknowns to justify _any_ good conclusions re
    bug hunting and disclosure vs the cost of intrusions.

    --
    Benjamin Franz

    On that of which one cannot speak, one must remain silent.
    ---Wittgenstein



  8. #8
    Daniel Whelan
    Paper announcement: Is finding security holes a good idea?
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    Thread Starter

    RE: Paper announcement: Is finding security holes a good idea?

    I am in a sinking ship. The water flows in at a constant rate and does
    not diminish. I begin bailing.

    After a little while, I notice that my efforts have had no 'measurable
    effect'; the level of water in my ship has not gone down, so I decide to
    focus my attention on trimming the sails or 'other' work . . .

    Granted, the analogy is not perfect, but it holds some truth.

    -----Original Message-----
    From: Eric Rescorla [mailto:ekr@rtfm.com]
    Sent: Wednesday, January 21, 2004 5:42 PM
    To: bugtraq@securityfocus.com
    Subject: Paper announcement: Is finding security holes a good idea?


    Bugtraq readers might be interested in this paper:

    Is finding security holes a good idea?

    Eric Rescorla
    RTFM, Inc. <http://www.rtfm.com/>

    A large amount of effort is expended every year on finding and patching
    security holes. The underlying rationale for this activity is that it
    increases welfare by decreasing the number of bugs available for
    discovery and exploitation by bad guys, thus reducing the total cost of
    intrusions. Given the amount of effort expended, we would expect to see
    noticeable results in terms of improved software quality. However, our
    investigation does not support a substantial quality improvement--the
    data does not allow us to exclude the possibility that the rate of bug
    finding in any given piece of software is constant over long periods of
    time. If there is little or no quality improvement, then we have no
    reason to believe that that the disclosure of bugs reduces the overall
    cost of intrusions.

    The paper can be downloaded from: http://www.rtfm.com/bugrate.pdf
    http://www.rtfm.com/bugrate.ps




  9. #9
    Daniel Whelan
    Paper announcement: Is finding security holes a good idea?
    Gast
    n/a Berichten
    Berichten zijn liked



    Thread Starter

    RE: Paper announcement: Is finding security holes a good idea?

    I am in a sinking ship. The water flows in at a constant rate and does
    not diminish. I begin bailing.

    After a little while, I notice that my efforts have had no 'measurable
    effect'; the level of water in my ship has not gone down, so I decide to
    focus my attention on trimming the sails or 'other' work . . .

    Granted, the analogy is not perfect, but it holds some truth.

    -----Original Message-----
    From: Eric Rescorla [mailto:ekr@rtfm.com]
    Sent: Wednesday, January 21, 2004 5:42 PM
    To: bugtraq@securityfocus.com
    Subject: Paper announcement: Is finding security holes a good idea?


    Bugtraq readers might be interested in this paper:

    Is finding security holes a good idea?

    Eric Rescorla
    RTFM, Inc. <http://www.rtfm.com/>

    A large amount of effort is expended every year on finding and patching
    security holes. The underlying rationale for this activity is that it
    increases welfare by decreasing the number of bugs available for
    discovery and exploitation by bad guys, thus reducing the total cost of
    intrusions. Given the amount of effort expended, we would expect to see
    noticeable results in terms of improved software quality. However, our
    investigation does not support a substantial quality improvement--the
    data does not allow us to exclude the possibility that the rate of bug
    finding in any given piece of software is constant over long periods of
    time. If there is little or no quality improvement, then we have no
    reason to believe that that the disclosure of bugs reduces the overall
    cost of intrusions.

    The paper can be downloaded from: http://www.rtfm.com/bugrate.pdf
    http://www.rtfm.com/bugrate.ps




  10. #10
    Christopher E. Cramer
    Paper announcement: Is finding security holes a good idea?
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    Thread Starter

    Re: Paper announcement: Is finding security holes a good idea?

    Eric,

    I would tend to agree with the other critiques of the paper and would
    include one more point. In your analysis of p_r (probability of
    rediscovery), you assume its value to be very low, if not zero, for most
    bugs (on a side note, vulnerabilities would be a much better term
    here). This is derived by noting that the number of bugs is very large
    (IEEE studies indicate # of bugs (though not necessarily
    vulnerabilities) to be anywhere from 1/10th to 1/100th of the number of
    lines of code) and that the number of discovered bugs is low. One thing
    that this ignores is that the discovery of vulnerabilities is often
    clustered as new classes of security issues are discovered.

    For example, over the past two years, we've seen an explosion in the
    number of cross site scripting vulnerabilities being reported. This
    occurred (and continues) as the community recognized new types of XSS
    vulnerabilities and tested these techniques against older software
    packages. Another example is the increasing number of "off by one"
    reports as researchers (both black and white hatted) search through
    applications for code that might be impacted.

    Of course, that theory breaks down somewhat when considering the
    classics (like buffer overflows). However, since the discovery of some
    classes of vulnerabilities are clustered, it might be interesting to
    search through ICAT to see if there is a temporal correlation in the
    types of bugs discovered and to see if you can factor that into your
    paper.

    -c

    --
    Christopher E. Cramer, Ph.D.
    University Information Technology Security Officer
    Duke University, Office of Information Technology
    PGP Public Key: http://www.duke.edu/~cramer/cramer.pgp


    On Wed, 2004-01-21 at 18:41, Eric Rescorla wrote:
    > Bugtraq readers might be interested in this paper:
    >
    > Is finding security holes a good idea?
    >
    > Eric Rescorla
    > RTFM, Inc. <http://www.rtfm.com/>
    >
    > A large amount of effort is expended every year on finding and patching
    > security holes. The underlying rationale for this activity is that it
    > increases welfare by decreasing the number of bugs available for
    > discovery and exploitation by bad guys, thus reducing the total cost of
    > intrusions. Given the amount of effort expended, we would expect to see
    > noticeable results in terms of improved software quality. However, our
    > investigation does not support a substantial quality improvement--the
    > data does not allow us to exclude the possibility that the rate of bug
    > finding in any given piece of software is constant over long periods of
    > time. If there is little or no quality improvement, then we have no
    > reason to believe that that the disclosure of bugs reduces the overall
    > cost of intrusions.
    >
    > The paper can be downloaded from:
    > http://www.rtfm.com/bugrate.pdf
    > http://www.rtfm.com/bugrate.ps



  11. #11
    Christopher E. Cramer
    Paper announcement: Is finding security holes a good idea?
    Gast
    n/a Berichten
    Berichten zijn liked



    Thread Starter

    Re: Paper announcement: Is finding security holes a good idea?

    Eric,

    I would tend to agree with the other critiques of the paper and would
    include one more point. In your analysis of p_r (probability of
    rediscovery), you assume its value to be very low, if not zero, for most
    bugs (on a side note, vulnerabilities would be a much better term
    here). This is derived by noting that the number of bugs is very large
    (IEEE studies indicate # of bugs (though not necessarily
    vulnerabilities) to be anywhere from 1/10th to 1/100th of the number of
    lines of code) and that the number of discovered bugs is low. One thing
    that this ignores is that the discovery of vulnerabilities is often
    clustered as new classes of security issues are discovered.

    For example, over the past two years, we've seen an explosion in the
    number of cross site scripting vulnerabilities being reported. This
    occurred (and continues) as the community recognized new types of XSS
    vulnerabilities and tested these techniques against older software
    packages. Another example is the increasing number of "off by one"
    reports as researchers (both black and white hatted) search through
    applications for code that might be impacted.

    Of course, that theory breaks down somewhat when considering the
    classics (like buffer overflows). However, since the discovery of some
    classes of vulnerabilities are clustered, it might be interesting to
    search through ICAT to see if there is a temporal correlation in the
    types of bugs discovered and to see if you can factor that into your
    paper.

    -c

    --
    Christopher E. Cramer, Ph.D.
    University Information Technology Security Officer
    Duke University, Office of Information Technology
    PGP Public Key: http://www.duke.edu/~cramer/cramer.pgp


    On Wed, 2004-01-21 at 18:41, Eric Rescorla wrote:
    > Bugtraq readers might be interested in this paper:
    >
    > Is finding security holes a good idea?
    >
    > Eric Rescorla
    > RTFM, Inc. <http://www.rtfm.com/>
    >
    > A large amount of effort is expended every year on finding and patching
    > security holes. The underlying rationale for this activity is that it
    > increases welfare by decreasing the number of bugs available for
    > discovery and exploitation by bad guys, thus reducing the total cost of
    > intrusions. Given the amount of effort expended, we would expect to see
    > noticeable results in terms of improved software quality. However, our
    > investigation does not support a substantial quality improvement--the
    > data does not allow us to exclude the possibility that the rate of bug
    > finding in any given piece of software is constant over long periods of
    > time. If there is little or no quality improvement, then we have no
    > reason to believe that that the disclosure of bugs reduces the overall
    > cost of intrusions.
    >
    > The paper can be downloaded from:
    > http://www.rtfm.com/bugrate.pdf
    > http://www.rtfm.com/bugrate.ps



  12. #12
    Robert Lemos
    Paper announcement: Is finding security holes a good idea?
    Gast
    n/a Berichten
    Berichten zijn liked



    Thread Starter

    Re: Paper announcement: Is finding security holes a good idea?

    On Wed, 2004-01-21 at 18:41, Eric Rescorla wrote:
    > However, our
    > investigation does not support a substantial quality improvement--the
    > data does not allow us to exclude the possibility that the rate of bug
    > finding in any given piece of software is constant over long periods of
    > time. If there is little or no quality improvement, then we have no
    > reason to believe that that the disclosure of bugs reduces the overall
    > cost of intrusions.


    While I have argued against using CERT numbers as an indicator of
    security trends, I would point out that the number of vulnerabilities
    logged by the organization has (it looks like) fallen this year from the
    2002 (based on three quarters of data).

    It is way too early to tell what this means, if anything. But assuming
    that a variety of variables are held constant (such as CERT's threshold
    for what constitutes a vuln, the number of apps audited by
    researchers/crackers, the amount of new code generated by developers
    this past year, etc.) then this could indicate that software quality has
    improved.

    Granted, it also likely means that less vulnerabilities have been found
    by current low- to medium-level of security auditing (i.e., the "bar"
    has been raised and the low-hanging fruit is all being picked).
    Researchers who look at more obscure flaws (Oulu University's
    investigation of ASN.1 issues is a good example), still seem to be
    finding enough of them.

    -R

    --
    | robert lemos | senior staff writer | cnet news.com |
    | v: (415) 344-2000 | e: rob.lemos@cnet.com |


  13. #13
    Robert Lemos
    Paper announcement: Is finding security holes a good idea?
    Gast
    n/a Berichten
    Berichten zijn liked



    Thread Starter

    Re: Paper announcement: Is finding security holes a good idea?

    On Wed, 2004-01-21 at 18:41, Eric Rescorla wrote:
    > However, our
    > investigation does not support a substantial quality improvement--the
    > data does not allow us to exclude the possibility that the rate of bug
    > finding in any given piece of software is constant over long periods of
    > time. If there is little or no quality improvement, then we have no
    > reason to believe that that the disclosure of bugs reduces the overall
    > cost of intrusions.


    While I have argued against using CERT numbers as an indicator of
    security trends, I would point out that the number of vulnerabilities
    logged by the organization has (it looks like) fallen this year from the
    2002 (based on three quarters of data).

    It is way too early to tell what this means, if anything. But assuming
    that a variety of variables are held constant (such as CERT's threshold
    for what constitutes a vuln, the number of apps audited by
    researchers/crackers, the amount of new code generated by developers
    this past year, etc.) then this could indicate that software quality has
    improved.

    Granted, it also likely means that less vulnerabilities have been found
    by current low- to medium-level of security auditing (i.e., the "bar"
    has been raised and the low-hanging fruit is all being picked).
    Researchers who look at more obscure flaws (Oulu University's
    investigation of ASN.1 issues is a good example), still seem to be
    finding enough of them.

    -R

    --
    | robert lemos | senior staff writer | cnet news.com |
    | v: (415) 344-2000 | e: rob.lemos@cnet.com |


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