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Bekijk Volledige Versie : Re: Mac OS X vulnerabilities ['Virus checked"]



Steve Clement
29/10/03, 19:45
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

All this issue depends on how suspicious you are really.

One could say that @stake waited till Panther 10.3 came out to release
the Security alert and therefore push the sales of the new system. Or
you could argue that it was an unlucky coincidence that with the new
release there were quite a few security bugs apearing.

So apple might have had to make a decision as to how the path work has
to be done, and in all the hectic some things must have gone "wrong"
e.g. no mentions about fixing 10.2 and so on.

Anyway, I do hope that Apple is going to patch 10.2 and I think they
will, they went the *nix/"OpenSource" way so now they have to walk the
route and adapt the philosophy that comes with it.

Greets,

Steve Clement


graham.coles@retail-logic.com wrote:
| Thor,
|
| Sorry, I hadn't read the vendor response section of the advisories fully,
| I'd rather assumed they would be issuing a security update for 10.2 as
| per usual.
|
| I'd have to agree it's a pretty poor showing from Apple if the only fix is
| to
| buy the next version of the operating system. I believe Microsoft are
about
| to stop patching Windows Me shortly (which has been around for a few years
| now) and usually support the current and previous service pack of an OS.
|
| If Apple are only going to support the most recent version of OS X - which
| equates to about 12 months lifetime, as I believe they're planning a major
| new release each year - then it's going to be either difficult or
expensive
| to
| keep secure.
|
| Given the current climate with regards to security, I don't think they're
| doing
| themselves any favours if they take this route. I hope they'll reconsider
| if this
| is their policy.
|



- --
ION Network Solutions
Steve Clement
Unix System Administrator
13, rue des Ardennes
L-1133 Luxembourg
Tel: +352 261 276-2
Fax: +352 261 276-9
mailto:steve@ion.lu
http://www.ion.lu
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graham.coles@retail-logic.com
29/10/03, 19:45
Thor,

Sorry, I hadn't read the vendor response section of the advisories fully,
I'd rather assumed they would be issuing a security update for 10.2 as
per usual.

I'd have to agree it's a pretty poor showing from Apple if the only fix is
to
buy the next version of the operating system. I believe Microsoft are about
to stop patching Windows Me shortly (which has been around for a few years
now) and usually support the current and previous service pack of an OS.

If Apple are only going to support the most recent version of OS X - which
equates to about 12 months lifetime, as I believe they're planning a major
new release each year - then it's going to be either difficult or expensive
to
keep secure.

Given the current climate with regards to security, I don't think they're
doing
themselves any favours if they take this route. I hope they'll reconsider
if this
is their policy.

Regards,

Graham Coles




"Thor Larholm"
<thor@pivx.com> To: <graham.coles@retail-logic.com>, <bugtraq@securityfocus.com>
cc:
29/10/2003 10:25 Subject: RE: Mac OS X vulnerabilities ['Virus checked"]






Graham,

Thank you for the feedback.

I can't locate any new patches or updates through the software update tool
on our 10.2 systems, and Apples security site (which I now received the URL
to) mentions nothing about these security updates for OS X 10.2

The only way for any Mac OS X 10.2 user to stay secure is to pay Apple for
an upgrade to Mac OS X 10.3, there are simply no patches for these
vulnerabilities in 10.2 even though 10.2 is affected.


Regards
Thor Larholm
PivX Solutions, LLC - Senior Security Researcher
http://pivx.com/larholm/ - Get our research, join our mailinglist

-----Original Message-----
From: graham.coles@retail-logic.com [mailto:graham.coles@retail-logic.com]
Sent: Wed 10/29/2003 2:14 AM
To: bugtraq@securityfocus.com; Thor Larholm
Cc:
Subject: Re: Mac OS X vulnerabilities ['Virus checked"]




I usually download main updates (10.2.8) and security patches from
http://www.apple.com/downloads/macosx/apple

There's also an automated update from within OS X which will check
for and install patches automatically.

These are non-chargeable updates, I believe the price you quote is
for a single user copy of Mac OS X.

Regards,

Graham Coles





"Thor Larholm"
<thor@pivx.com> To: "@stake
Advisories" <advisories@atstake.com>,
<bugtraq@securityfocus.com>
cc:
<product-security@apple.com>
28/10/2003 19:23 Subject: Re: Mac OS X
vulnerabilities ['Virus checked"]






I couldn't find any security contacts on apple.com that didn't look
fee-based so
I am asking here in response to these latest disclosures of security
vulnerabilities in Mac OS X.

When most vendors are notified of security vulnerabilities in their
products,
they produce a patch for the affected versions of the software and
distribute it
for free. Does Apple plan to distribute a free patch for these security
vulnerabilities to Mac OS X 10.2, or will my clients have to spend $129
per
workstation (the single user upgrade price) to have their Apple computer
stay
secure?


Regards
Thor Larholm
PivX Solutions, LLC - Senior Security Researcher
http://pivx.com/larholm/ - Get our research, join our mailinglist


> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "@stake Advisories" <advisories@atstake.com>

> Subject: Mac OS X Long argv[] buffer overflow
> This is fixed in Mac OS X 10.3
<snip
http://www.securityfocus.com/archive/1/342735/2003-10-25/2003-10-31/0
>

> Mac OS X Systemic Insecure File Permissions
> This is fixed in Mac OS X 10.3
<snip
http://www.securityfocus.com/archive/1/342725/2003-10-25/2003-10-31/0
>

> Mac OS X Arbitrary File Overwrite via Core Files
> This is fixed in Mac OS X 10.3
<snip
http://www.securityfocus.com/archive/1/342730/2003-10-25/2003-10-31/0
>

graham.coles@retail-logic.com
29/10/03, 20:00
I usually download main updates (10.2.8) and security patches from
http://www.apple.com/downloads/macosx/apple

There's also an automated update from within OS X which will check
for and install patches automatically.

These are non-chargeable updates, I believe the price you quote is
for a single user copy of Mac OS X.

Regards,

Graham Coles





"Thor Larholm"
<thor@pivx.com> To: "@stake Advisories" <advisories@atstake.com>, <bugtraq@securityfocus.com>
cc: <product-security@apple.com>
28/10/2003 19:23 Subject: Re: Mac OS X vulnerabilities ['Virus checked"]






I couldn't find any security contacts on apple.com that didn't look
fee-based so
I am asking here in response to these latest disclosures of security
vulnerabilities in Mac OS X.

When most vendors are notified of security vulnerabilities in their
products,
they produce a patch for the affected versions of the software and
distribute it
for free. Does Apple plan to distribute a free patch for these security
vulnerabilities to Mac OS X 10.2, or will my clients have to spend $129 per
workstation (the single user upgrade price) to have their Apple computer
stay
secure?


Regards
Thor Larholm
PivX Solutions, LLC - Senior Security Researcher
http://pivx.com/larholm/ - Get our research, join our mailinglist


> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "@stake Advisories" <advisories@atstake.com>

> Subject: Mac OS X Long argv[] buffer overflow
> This is fixed in Mac OS X 10.3
<snip http://www.securityfocus.com/archive/1/342735/2003-10-25/2003-10-31/0
>

> Mac OS X Systemic Insecure File Permissions
> This is fixed in Mac OS X 10.3
<snip http://www.securityfocus.com/archive/1/342725/2003-10-25/2003-10-31/0
>

> Mac OS X Arbitrary File Overwrite via Core Files
> This is fixed in Mac OS X 10.3
<snip http://www.securityfocus.com/archive/1/342730/2003-10-25/2003-10-31/0
>

Adam Shostack
29/10/03, 20:00
On Wed, Oct 29, 2003 at 06:18:40PM +0100, Steve Clement wrote:
| -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
| Hash: SHA1
|
| All this issue depends on how suspicious you are really.
|
| One could say that @stake waited till Panther 10.3 came out to release
| the Security alert and therefore push the sales of the new system. Or
| you could argue that it was an unlucky coincidence that with the new
| release there were quite a few security bugs apearing.

@Stake is being pretty up front that they are moving far away from
full-disclosure. Weld has been up-front and vocal about this shift
and the reasons for it.

It seems fairly clear that DaveG reported these issues to Apple (along
with many others over the past while), and for this subset of the
DaveG issues, Apple said "these are complex to fix, we'll get to them in
the next major release."

Which is roughly where we were 10 years ago in some ways: Vendors got
bug reports, and as much time as they wanted to fix the issues. If
there's independent rediscovery of issues (and I think for some of
these, that's likely), then customers are SOL as the issues are
exploited. On the plus side, 10 years ago, vendors might have said
"fixed security issues," without enumeration or acknowledgment. So
that's improved.

I think that announcing a set of security issues, and saying "the fix
is to upgrade your entire OS" is not a great disclosure strategy. If
that's @Stake's new plan, I would give the new OS 30-90 days before
making the announcements. But I believe that the general risk of
independent discovery of issues is substantial enough that this sort
of long delay from discovery to fix is a poor practice, and one that
we as an industry had been moving away from.

Adam

--
"It is seldom that liberty of any kind is lost all at once."
-Hume

Thor Larholm
29/10/03, 20:45
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Ragnar Sundblad
29/10/03, 22:30
--On den 29 oktober 2003 13:03 -0500 Adam Shostack <adam@homeport.org>
wrote:

> I think that announcing a set of security issues, and saying "the fix
> is to upgrade your entire OS" is not a great disclosure strategy.

I certainly agree here, as do we all, I think. Let me just again
point out that we don't know yet if this is what they say.

All of you who care, please show them that you do.
Either register for a developer account (free) and send
a bug report on <http://bugreport.apple.com>, or send an
email to product-security@apple.com.

/ragge

Chris Wysopal
30/10/03, 00:00
In-Reply-To: <20031029180349.GA85446@lightship.internal.homeport .org>


@stake's policy has been the same since June, 2002 which was its last revision. Our policy is in line with the OIS guidelines. Assuming Mac OS X 10.2 is supported, Apple is not following the OIS guidelines which require a vendor to release a remedy for
*all supported platforms* and to make an effort to deliver them simultaneously.


From: http://www.oisafety.org/reference/process.pdf

7.1.4

The Vendor shall ensure that a remedy is available for all supported products affected by the Flaw

7.3.9

If multiple products or versions are affected by the Flaw, the Vendor shall exercise reasonable efforts to simultaneously deliver all remedies.


It may come as a surprise to many people on the list that the OIS guidelines require/recommend vendors to do a lot of things that many vendors do not do now and are very good for customers.

When we reported these issues to Apple they told us that they would have them fixed in the Panther release timeframe. To be honest, I assumed there would also be a patch for 10.2. We certainly didn't dictate any specific way of releasing the fixes.

The DMG file issue was reported in June, 2003 and the core overwrite issue was reported on 7/25/2003. I don't have a recorded notification date for the long argv issue.

Whether or not a vendor makes a customer pay for a security remedy is a business decision but they should make it clear that they are not supporting older versions if they are not releasing free patches for them. I think security fixes should be separate
from feature updates since new features often introduce new vulnerabilies.

Cheers,

Chris



> Adam Shostack wrote:
>
>@Stake is being pretty up front that they are moving far away from
>full-disclosure. Weld has been up-front and vocal about this shift
>and the reasons for it.
>
>It seems fairly clear that DaveG reported these issues to Apple (along
>with many others over the past while), and for this subset of the
>DaveG issues, Apple said "these are complex to fix, we'll get to them in
>the next major release."
>
>Which is roughly where we were 10 years ago in some ways: Vendors got
>bug reports, and as much time as they wanted to fix the issues. If
>there's independent rediscovery of issues (and I think for some of
>these, that's likely), then customers are SOL as the issues are
>exploited. On the plus side, 10 years ago, vendors might have said
>"fixed security issues," without enumeration or acknowledgment. So
>that's improved.
>
>I think that announcing a set of security issues, and saying "the fix
>is to upgrade your entire OS" is not a great disclosure strategy. If
>that's @Stake's new plan, I would give the new OS 30-90 days before
>making the announcements. But I believe that the general risk of
>independent discovery of issues is substantial enough that this sort
>of long delay from discovery to fix is a poor practice, and one that
>we as an industry had been moving away from.
>
>Adam
>
>--
>"It is seldom that liberty of any kind is lost all at once."
> -Hume
>
>
>

Kurt Harvey
30/10/03, 19:00
At 7:52 PM +0100 10/29/03, Ragnar Sundblad wrote:
>--On den 29 oktober 2003 13:03 -0500 Adam Shostack <adam@homeport.org> wrote:
>
>>I think that announcing a set of security issues, and saying "the fix
>>is to upgrade your entire OS" is not a great disclosure strategy.
>
>I certainly agree here, as do we all, I think. Let me just again
>point out that we don't know yet if this is what they say.
>
>All of you who care, please show them that you do.
>Either register for a developer account (free) and send
>a bug report on <http://bugreport.apple.com>, or send an
>email to product-security@apple.com.
>
>/ragge


As an OSX admin I am with you all on this. Here's another place to
speak up. This is the link from the icon in the OSX Dock.

<http://www.apple.com/macosx/feedback/>

I'm hoping they're in the process of doing the right thing and just
haven't announced it yet. The wording of Apple's security
announcement did make me wonder though.


Kurt